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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:09:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alex, your point is well taken. I should have said that mag dumps with no purpose are a waste. The only practical value the 30 rd mags have is to lengthen the time between mag changes. Holding down the go switch until empty negates that advantage in most cases. In semi-auto fire the extra 10 (8 for USGI) rounds helps. They've been proven over a long period. I did like and use the 20s for qualification when I could, as it was easier to go prone with them. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:16:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s They didnt know what kind of environment they were facing and thus had no idea what that environment called for. Remember WWS takes place in November 1965 -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags By today's standards, absolutely. I happen to have a UCM (M14) mag pouch here loaded with 20s, and with padding on the bottom, it works! Remember, the infantry always finds a way to customize their kit. I wouldn't say "resort", so much as I'd say preferred. -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets Flak isnt bullets, its lightweight jagged pieces of metal at high speed. Most USA units didnt wear flak jackets, though some units in the 1st ID did. USMC certainly did. Bullet resistant armor didnt show up until '68 and even then only helicopter crews used it. -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom Those slings were designed for garrison duty. Even then, the infantryman has virtually unlimited ingenuity. Tape silences slings, and paracord or wire, makes a sling longer and attach differently -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part OD green works great in jungles and woodlands. Tan works good in deserts. That said, go look at the highest of the highspeed guys in Vietnam, MAC-V SOG, those cats could've gotten tiger stripe pillow cases and ERDL (primary green or primary brown) blankets and duvets if they wanted to, but in looking at their pictures, they sure did seem to go out with OD greens. I'll post a pic below. -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it They could carry as much water on their belt and suspenders as they desired. They carry more on their packs. Further, the Airmobile concept meant resupply was fairly easy. The M1956, and the later M1967 gear was a huge leap for the individual soldier and his desired modularity over the previous generation. Sure, cotton duck sucked in the jungle, but the USM planned for EuroDisney fight. -Slow flap holsters for pistols Pistols aren't a primary for anyone but Sgt Maj Plumley and some medics. That flap holster wasnt designed for speed, but to keep the gun fairly secured, and keep shit out of the gun. Going back to that, Infantyman's and Soldier's ingenuity, going back to at least WW2, men would trim the the laps down to make for a faster draw. I have my grandfather's holster that he carried a 1911 in as a Combat Engineer in The Philippines and elsewhere in the South/Southwest Pacific in which he did that. Keep in mind, the USM used a nylon version of the damed thing called the M12 (UM84 in the civilian world) -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s While the wood stock was heavier than the synthetic, what did it really matter when all infantry units would soon have the M16? It just wasnt a priority. There were challenges back then that we dont necessarily face now, because of those challenges back then. One was using synthetics in weapons design. John St Martin, 1-0, RT New York   More MAC-V SOG RT members |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:19:29 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets not forget that Ordinance's fuckery made sure that not only did a lot of guys get killed for Ordinance's fetishes, but the average grunt lost the ability to trust his weapon. Municipal ordinances or county ordinances? |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:20:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryWhat's the coil? Antenna? |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:25:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is particularly stupid because one of the goals for the M14 was to replace SMGs. EVERYTHING about M14 was stupid. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:25:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the coil? Antenna? The thing wrapped across his body? DIY antipersonnel mine if I recall. Edit: XM37 or XM61 linear mine appears to be the nomenclature. Uses pre scored frag coils with det cord threaded through them. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:29:05 PM EDT
[#7]
DetCord and washers, I think I read somewhere before. Makeshift snakey claymore things
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:32:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the coil? Antenna? Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the coil? Antenna? Det cord with washers for frag. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:32:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Those fiberglass stocks for the M14 were a very expensive development for the time.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:33:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Det cord with washers for frag. Fascinating! Thank you - I learned something today. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:33:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryAh yes, the main stream media taking care of the heavy lift in the propaganda war for the Communists - since 1962! Fucking unreal. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:46:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For a bunch of poorly equipped grunts they did a dammed fine job of killing fucking communists. Even while our government did it's best to AVOID actually defeating the communists! |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:52:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Our infantry was only poorly served by the politicians who put them in a war that we could not win based on a naive ROE and a desire to fight a proxy war against commies while failing to root out commies in the USA. The failed experiment that was Vietnam led to the anti war movement, hippies, modern liberals, and the corruption we have today. I always believed this, but in retrospect I am positive that the failure to actually pursue victory in the war, the media's constant drumming on the enemy's human side, and the domestic hippy anti-war movement, were all coordinated parallel unit movements in the enemy's overall pro-communist campaign. The Commies infiltrated our government and JFK was killed in order to install the first of many Communists into our government to start hacking away at the Constitution and our national personality. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:52:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In semi-auto fire the extra 10 (8 for USGI) rounds helps. They've been proven over a long period. I did like and use the 20s for qualification when I could, as it was easier to go prone with them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Alex, your point is well taken. I should have said that mag dumps with no purpose are a waste. The only practical value the 30 rd mags have is to lengthen the time between mag changes. Holding down the go switch until empty negates that advantage in most cases. In semi-auto fire the extra 10 (8 for USGI) rounds helps. They've been proven over a long period. I did like and use the 20s for qualification when I could, as it was easier to go prone with them. Completely agree with this. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:55:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:58:14 PM EDT
[#16]
If you watch footage you'll notice some people shirtless and didn't even have gear.
A lot of times before the first contact with actual NVA regulars they thought they were up against Vietcong so they'd just drop their gear and leave it behind in the jungle because of how hot and humid it was. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:00:01 PM EDT
[#17]
I think a lot of '80s and '90s vets in this thread think the ALICE load-bearing gear and woodland camo flak vest were the same thing issued in Vietnam, they were not.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:12:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... We gave out micro grants to business owners in Sadr to win hearts and minds and all we got was more EFPs. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:24:20 PM EDT
[#19]
We had the same gear in the early 80's, OP.
The cotton fatigues were getting harder to find but I had a couple of pairs I kept starched for guard mount. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:32:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I always believed this, but in retrospect I am positive that the failure to actually pursue victory in the war, the media's constant drumming on the enemy's human side, and the domestic hippy anti-war movement, were all coordinated parallel unit movements in the enemy's overall pro-communist campaign. The Commies infiltrated our government and JFK was killed in order to install the first of many Communists into our government to start hacking away at the Constitution and our national personality. FDR was around long before JFK was killed. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:32:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you watch footage you'll notice some people shirtless and didn't even have gear. A lot of times before the first contact with actual NVA regulars they thought they were up against Vietcong so they'd just drop their gear and leave it behind in the jungle because of how hot and humid it was. There was not much of a "grooming standard" over there. We wore what we wanted. During the day we may have gone shirtless in the heat but at night in the field we wore long sleeves because of the goddamn bugs. By the way, I was raised in Florida without AC. I was use to heat and humidity. When I got over there I thought I could take the heat OK. I was wrong. It was a whole new level. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:08:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We gave out micro grants to business owners in Sadr to win hearts and minds and all we got was more EFPs. The most effective parts of the surge was hiring insurgents as "security" and restoring pensions to Saddam-era Iraqi Army personnel. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:14:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Everyone thinks the military uses the latest and greatest. Rarely, if ever, that is true on a large scale.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:18:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Infantry load bearing equipment didn’t change a lot till after 2001 when the war started.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:18:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was no much of a "grooming standard" over there. We wore what we wanted. During the day we may have gone shirtless in the heat but at night in the field we wore long sleeves because of the goddamn bugs. By the way, I was raised in Florida without AC. I was use to heat and humidity. When I got over there I thought I could take the heat OK. I was wrong. It was a whole new level. My family member told the crazy shit people would do to stay cool and shit. He said it was also crazy when they first encountered NVA regulars no one really had masks anymore because they just dropped them but then they saw a cloud of tear gas and saw nva charging with masks on. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:21:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think a lot of '80s and '90s vets in this thread think the ALICE load-bearing gear and woodland camo flak vest were the same thing issued in Vietnam, they were not. Year the PASGT flak jackets were different but roughly the same weight as the M69 flak vests. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:29:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's really shocking is we didn't have an aggressive policy toward taking the war to the north. We should have leveled every city in the north with perpetual carpet bombing. Their ports and cities should have looked like an atomic weapon hit them. It's my personal belief that no war can be won on defense. I'm genuinely curious what the Soviet/Chinese response would have been had we gone all out... |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:41:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Early Desert Shield, I had nylon web gear instead of canvas, 30 round magazines instead of 20s for my M16A1, I was still rocking a steel piss pot, Vietnam era flack vest, a 1911A1 in a leather flap holster and OG utilities. We didn't get the PASGT Vest, Helmet, BDUs M9s, M16A2E3s and nylon holsters until after Desert Storm. So yeah you could have time warped me back to 1969 Republic of Vietnam and I would have fit right in. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Change the material of the web gear slightly, change the magazines to 30 rounders - and it was standard infantry gear well into the 1990s. So yeah you could have time warped me back to 1969 Republic of Vietnam and I would have fit right in. Yep. And nylon web gear issue to replace the canvas started in 1967. And the PASGT flak vest was conceived as cutting edge in the early 70s, then designed, then tested, and started issue in the 1980s. With a fairly similar timeline on the helmet. On the good side, our .mil procurement for good stuff has become much faster for development, existence, and fielding. On the bad side it’s mainly due to massive influx of taxpayer dollars with a fortune skimmed off the top politically and a disgusting amount of jobs for retired FO/GOs that made selection decisions at these same companies when they retired. So like 87% of the money ends up at various levels of graft. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:44:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We gave out micro grants to business owners in Sadr to win hearts and minds and all we got was more EFPs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... We gave out micro grants to business owners in Sadr to win hearts and minds and all we got was more EFPs. Kind of like handing out EBT and welfare checks here - all we get are more violent commie hood rats. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:50:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's really shocking is we didn't have an aggressive policy toward taking the war to the north. We should have leveled every city in the north with perpetual carpet bombing. Their ports and cities should have looked like an atomic weapon hit them. It's my personal belief that no war can be won on defense. And here we have the answer. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:50:37 PM EDT
[#31]
I like the 20-rounders- easier to go prone, less apt to get snagged on straps, limbs, etc.
All my reloads are 30s, and I could see some situations where a 40 as a contact mag would be nice. In heat and humidity the LBE outperforms chest rigs and vests *when not wearing armor* if circumstances dictate armor than no reason not to have a chest rig IMO. And IDK where the notion of "you can't carry enough on a belt" came from... my LBE hauls 8 .308 mags or a dozen AR mags, plus 2 quarts of water, compass, 2 pistol mags, knife, and a buttpack. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 2:57:27 PM EDT
[#32]
The ironic things is...none of it really mattered. The entire war was lost in a place that the infantry never saw. It was truly an air war that could have been won from the air and proven the USAF dream of dominant airpower. All they had to do was bomb the North into absolute destruction, target their leadership, mine the harbor and coastline, and blockade them via mines and interdiction strike missions.
Instead they pretended CAS would win if they did it enough. It had virtually no impact on the outcome. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:09:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved It kinda makes sense, considering the Chosin Reservoir / Yalu River crossing had occurred ~15 years prior. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:19:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It kinda makes sense, considering the Chosin Reservoir / Yalu River crossing had occurred ~15 years prior. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I used to think the same thing. But they were terrified of the Chinese getting involved It kinda makes sense, considering the Chosin Reservoir / Yalu River crossing had occurred ~15 years prior. The Chinese were a paper tiger as the Vietnamese kicked their ass after we pulled out. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:25:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah yes, the main stream media taking care of the heavy lift in the propaganda war for the Communists - since 1962! Fucking unreal. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:26:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: EVERYTHING about M14 was stupid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which is particularly stupid because one of the goals for the M14 was to replace SMGs. EVERYTHING about M14 was stupid. What kind of trouble did you have with your issue M-14? |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:30:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Chinese were a paper tiger as the Vietnamese kicked their ass after we pulled out. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:34:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like the 20-rounders- easier to go prone, less apt to get snagged on straps, limbs, etc. All my reloads are 30s, and I could see some situations where a 40 as a contact mag would be nice. In heat and humidity the LBE outperforms chest rigs and vests *when not wearing armor* if circumstances dictate armor than no reason not to have a chest rig IMO. And IDK where the notion of "you can't carry enough on a belt" came from... my LBE hauls 8 .308 mags or a dozen AR mags, plus 2 quarts of water, compass, 2 pistol mags, knife, and a buttpack. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:02:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We didn't know that at the time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Chinese were a paper tiger as the Vietnamese kicked their ass after we pulled out. I bet they knew that. We could have ended that in less than a year if we wanted to. We were far more advanced at that time than they were. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:04:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two quarts of water is JACK SQUAT Two quarts is what I drink if I want to feel like shit the next day. When it’s cold and I’m stationary. I was doing 2 quarts a hour sitting in my Brad in Iraq. I can’t imagine how much I’d need humping the jungle in a high humidity environment. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:06:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two quarts is what I drink if I want to feel like shit the next day. When it’s cold and I’m stationary. I was doing 2 quarts a hour sitting in my Brad in Iraq. I can’t imagine how much I’d need humping the jungle in a high humidity environment. They refilled from local sources while on patrol. Lots of iodine. You can't hump enough water to stay hydrated. The enemy did the same thing. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:10:35 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We could have paid every man woman and child in Vietnam $10,000 to quite being communists and probably saved half of what we spent and saved all our own kid's lives and limbs... In 1962, you could buy a middle class house in the USA for $10k. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:10:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets not forget that Ordinance's fuckery made sure that not only did a lot of guys get killed for Ordinance's fetishes, but the average grunt lost the ability to trust his weapon. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s Lets not forget that Ordinance's fuckery made sure that not only did a lot of guys get killed for Ordinance's fetishes, but the average grunt lost the ability to trust his weapon. That should’ve resulted in firing squads for every cocksucker involved in sabotaging the M16. The ALICE honestly isn’t bad, especially for the time. The concept of a belt with suspenders still works well today, with modern materials/designs, though these days, chest rigs are more common since infantry has become mechanized. For foot patrols, it still works great, and balances the weight of equipment between hips and shoulders. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:18:40 PM EDT
[#44]
from my research:
ham and motherfuckers > cold rice and rat meat |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:20:06 PM EDT
[#45]
<not a combat vet>
the LBE that we wore in the 80s was good enough. The Bradley carried the rest of what we needed; and we loaded it up good. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:28:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like the 20-rounders- easier to go prone, less apt to get snagged on straps, limbs, etc. All my reloads are 30s, and I could see some situations where a 40 as a contact mag would be nice. In heat and humidity the LBE outperforms chest rigs and vests *when not wearing armor* if circumstances dictate armor than no reason not to have a chest rig IMO. And IDK where the notion of "you can't carry enough on a belt" came from... my LBE hauls 8 .308 mags or a dozen AR mags, plus 2 quarts of water, compass, 2 pistol mags, knife, and a buttpack. I would have hated to wear all that chest shit I see on the soldiers nowadays. In that heat and humidity it would have been hell. It would have been like baking in an oven. I don't how my son put up with it in Iraq. Dry heat? LOL! I mostly served in II Corps but one time I went down to the Delta on a little mission. It was like being in a sauna and that was in December. When I first got there in 67 I was issued a M-14. A couple of months later they replaced the M-14s with M-16s-A1s. Much better to carry. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:29:42 PM EDT
[#47]
At least we brought a battleship to the fight.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:33:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two quarts of water is JACK SQUAT Before going out in the field we always drunk as much water as we could stand. There was usually water around some place or another. We carried the water purification tablets. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:34:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Watching We Were Soldiers and got to thinking... -20 round M16 mags when they were in an environment that called for 30s or 40s -Awful magazine pouches so guys would often resort to canteen pouches or claymore bags -A 7 lb flak vest that doesn't stop any bullets -Slings that rattle where they attach at the rear swivel, plus way too short and attaching only at the bottom -Just giving guys green uniforms but not actual patterned camo for the most part -Crappy web gear that you can't carry enough water on because you have the belt and that's it -Slow flap holsters for pistols -Being four years late to issue synthetic stocks for M14s I was in the Army during the early 80's and we had some of the same gear. OD clothing? No worries. Camouflage is a concept not a pattern. 20 round magazines? I would have no problem going to war with 20's. Dumb mag dumps are dumb. Crappy web gear? It IS pretty amazing we had cotton web gear. I still have my "butt pack". It was old when it was issued to me. And I still use it all the time...just used it yesterday squirrel hunting. Flap holsters? Meeeh....the average grunt isn't carrying a pistol anyway. Heck, we carried them in the flap holster, mag in, empty chamber. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 4:41:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They refilled from local sources while on patrol. Lots of iodine. You can't hump enough water to stay hydrated. The enemy did the same thing. Yeah, my pops had some stories. Sounds like it sucked. Like, idk if that’s my kind of suck, sucked. Happy for the desert and no leaches and fewer snakes, and less rain. But he got beer occasionally, so… A wash? |
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