Entirely, tho their market share will continue to decline and world relevance continue to slide. Then when the single segment they dominate wanes, capsize. We've seen this movie before, elsewhere.

Havnt forgot, my take a bit of time to get back to my stuff. I know it was a Fin site, not auto. @GenYRevolverGuy

I've seen exactly one so far in NW Florida.

I really wanted a green one, especially a long bed, but was on a limited budget and the white S 4x4 was the right deal.

Eventually I'm gonna get some suspension and all terrain tires on it. They look awesome with some mods.

One of our cars is a 2018 Murano Platinum...it has been at the dealer for 3 months waiting on a instrument cluster..they said it could be there another 4 months...great

They print money?? Lol. You mean the taxpayers. Thy all got bailed out by the taxpayers. They exist only because of socialism and governmental interference protecting them. No other manufacture can compete against the US Government bailing out their competition.

RWD Nissans are fine.  FWD not so much.

I liked my wife's V6 Altima, but it didn't hold up.

Being mostly isolated to a single segment isn't ideal, but this is a pretty safe and important segment. Trucks are likely to be a consumer favorite for a long time, and even if market factors change that, fleets and businesses are always going to need trucks.



I'm not going to defend the bailouts, but that was a one-off event in the middle of a global recession, it was 15 years ago, and the companies in question have changed quite a bit since then.

Not ideal, but these world companies have abandoned markets traditionally important and profitable, and relinquished segments that they long owned. It wouldn't take wholesale changes, just some adversity shaving off margins there'd be real trouble. Arlington alone account for about a third of GMs EBIT, 30% of Ford EBIT is Pro, 61% Blue - mostly trucks. Lotta eggs in one basket. So a decline in consumer demand will have an outsized effect, especially with the UAW contract's $9B over the next 5 years.

Ive got no tea leaves, but like you think the demand won't significantly alter during that time, but my concern is long term.

FWIW Ford's never been "bailed out", but they are straddling atm. The ship is righted to an extent but there's still more dangers there than any other. Chrysler's had two. GM was a gross perversion of law more than a bailout.

You've got my vote! A slightly modernized D21 with the massive prerunner fenders they have would look awesome! Throw in a decent V6 and a 6 speed manual and I might have to actually buy a new rig!

I almost got the last of the Stanzas, but instead got a black 2 door 93 Accord coupe, 5 speed.  

I still miss that car.  It was gorgeous when it was new, and it was a fun car to drive.

To close to DAT ASS!

I have seen exactly one new Z in person out in the wild.  It was yellow, and it was riding on a flatbed trailer.  

I think it is a decent looking car and would consider it if I were in the market for a sporty car.

Just learned today that last month our Mitsubishi store tied for sales with Nissan

Hardbody is the best Nissan.




For the hardbody nerds like me, factory V6, 5MT 4wd truck. Factory paint. Japan built 4/86. Only way to get 2 tone was Japan built and prior to 87. V6 SWB is very unique.

One of these was my first "performance" car
I loved that thing .

Digital Dash , 5 spd. Turbo , angry Asian woman voice alerts LOL

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I will have to disagree. They still put out dosghit. There is a reason the BIG are the minority in cars on the road. Trucks ? They are still big as trucks go but looking on the roads? Very few are of the big 3 anymore. PRetty rare actually. But they still continue to use Leftist mafia labor (Union) so that right there is a huge no.

I think it was Q3 that Fiat sold less cars than they have dealerships

Part of the reason for your observation is that they don't really make cars anymore. Ish.

The only car Ford builds is the Mustang. Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus, and their Lincoln platform mates? All gone.

The only cars built under the old Chrysler brands are the Charger, Challenger, and 300, and all of these are pending replacement with some kind of EV friendly platform. The Dart, the Avenger, the Sebring, and all other such things are gone.

Chevrolet has the Malibu and the Camaro on the chopping block leaving the Corvette. Cars like the Sonic, Cruze, and Impala are gone.

All three of these brands are leaning into CUV/SUV type things for reasons of profit margins and CAFE compliance, and all three seem to be rearranging models and segments to adjust with demand.

They're not my bag of chips, but judging by the massive consumer response for vehicles like the Bronco Sport and the Maverick, I think they're doing something right.

yep but long story short, Datsun was just the export name for Nissan. They dropped the Datsun name to strengthen the Nissan brand.

I do like the new Z. They finally got rid of those fucking stupid headlight assemblies that go half way down the fenders. Same with the taillights. Got rid if the huge ass assemblies.

There are 359 Fiat dealerships across the country, but the brand sold just 145 vehicles for the whole of Q3. Let's put that number into context. Fiat sold a full 50 cars in its best month this year. By contrast, Ford has sold an average of 78 F-Series trucks per hour in 2023.

I miss my 280Z as well!

Now I ha evenough money to get the 8 track working, but nnnnoooooo....

The Tesla Truck may change that but I have a feeling that Toyota Tundra sales will be impacted more.

I really don't see it affecting sales of useful vehicles. It might affect rivian sales and not much more.

Toyota sold 92k Tundra in 2022.

Tesla is going to likely build 75K trucks in 2024 and 150K in 2025 and beyond.  They definitely have the demand.  A competitor is going to lose. Certainly Rivian and the Ford Lightning are going to take a hit but there isn't enough volume there to account for that many sales conquest s.

People that do truck stuff don't want an electric play toy and Toyota people tend to be some of the most loyal to a fault.


I don't see the cyber truck thing putting much hurt on a market.

That like saying the Tesla car will make Corolla sales plummet.

The people that want an electric truck that is quite literally useless beyond running a couple cans to the dump and the people that buy a tundra are a very different group. Same goes for the people that will pay for a tundra vs some over priced hot wheels.

Building 75k /= selling 75k. Even Toyota has surplus trucks on the lot, at least around here.

You have good taste

[You have good taste

even though I am not Mexican or black I would take a nissan over a samsung car any day of the week. Wish they still made the xterra.

I see exactly this every night on the way home from DFW.

Nails it.

In Illinois and Florida, Nissan drivers usually suck to drive behind, and Often I see something happen weird or unsafe on the road because of Nissan drivers, so I draw my own conclusions and Nissan customer service is the worst and I hope they go bankrupt

Markets are elastic beyond segments.

2013 Tacoma sold 150k units - you had 2 other choices in the segment: Ridgeline and Frontier.  Segment had 230k sales. A decade later

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There's sometimes losers, but often new products create demand, from outside the segment, from new buyers into the entire market, or the opposite due to shifting consumer preferences (ie sedans).

Bring the Nissan patrol over here and I might buy it

The Cybertruck was designed by people who have no idea how trucks are used for people who have no idea how trucks are used. It has the least accessible truck bed ever designed, and can't tow a meaningful distance. It's a rolling fashion accessory.

The Cybertruck might take sales from the sort of people that bought Raptors, TRXs, H2s, and those Escalade Avalanche things. Nobody who is looking for a truck to do truck things is buying the Cybertruck.

I'm not just talking about tradesmen and farmers here. If a suburban dude that lives in the KC area wants a truck so he can tow a boat or camper to the Ozarks for a long weekend, the Cybertruck is off the menu. It simply can't do the job without major inconvenience.

Those sales aren't coming from bread and butter truck buyers.

two words: Carlos Ghosn

None of this follows. Total US vehicle sales, '21 and '22, the top 3 were GM or Toyota (@ 2.2M) with Ford a close third. 4th was Stellanris - closer in '21, font as close in '22 at 1.5 million.

Honda and Korea Motors both sold about 1.4. Then Nissan at just short a million and VW at 650k-ish

In '21 Light trucks made up bit more than half of GMs sales - so they sold roughly 1.1M non-truck vehicles. 300k less cars than Honda and Korea ALL IN (we'll ignore Ridgeline and Santa Cruz, tho it make GM closer).  GM alone sold more "cars" than every other mfg than those two and - where the gap widens -Toyota. They sold more "cars" than 7 mfgs combined - BMW, JLR, Mazda, MB, Mitsubishi, Tesla, Volvo.

Regardless of what your mk 1 eyeball tells you, GM is still very relevant in the States. If you want to buy Japanese brands, make sure you avoid Japan assembly, because almost all are Union.

I see more ghetto people driving Nissans than Kia's

Peeps here lament the Renault takeover don't understand how close Nissan was to the edge. And how he's the savior of the GT-R. Mizuno, the GodFather, claims he had the R35 in his head prior, but without Ghosn the suit, Gundum Godzilla never happens.

The best thing about Nissan is if you want one of their brand new cars but can’t afford it just wait 10-15 years and buy it used, detail it real good and the average person won’t be able to tell the difference from your 10 year old used car to what they’re still selling brand new in the show room.

But really I thought Toyota was bad with never updating their trucks but the 370 had a 13 year life, the r35 is still in production since 2009. I can’t imagine why I never see them anymore. Also pretty sad when a brand new flagship sports car, 370z, can’t even beat a stock 93 rx7 in a drag race.

The difference being Toyota has sold every truck it could produce.

2020 it was dire. Many called it for Nissan. But since Nissan closed two plants - Zona Franca (Europe) and Purwakarta (ASEAN). They killed one of the 4 Stateside ops, Dechard Engine (IPP) - partly since MB and Nissan split. So they've righted the ship a bit, but the bottom has dropped out of the States sales.

All you snooty MB drivers calling Nissan Ghetto - check under your hood

Just bought a used '22 Frontier PRO4X after testing everything. Excellent engine, ZF trans, great seating position, and enough modern tech without being whizzbang. It's the only mid compact truck at this point that is NA and not bleeding edge on all fronts (what made the Tacoma successful for so many years).

Loving it so far, and getting about 21 mpg in mixed city/suburb, which is phenomenal.

We have a pile of Toyota trucks the at just lot on the lot around here. Kinda seems to go against the "Toyota has sold every truck they built" claim.

I don't an Audi. Fancy VW wagon with the best AWD in the business. Fully mechanical with a torsen center. Just drove through a grassy mud bog of a field today. Not an issue.

Last month of final year sales during the largest leap forward in model history - vs the last 20 years? Mike Bafan literally had to scrape together  assembly at TMMBC from a panel stamping plant. Starting at 20k units in '04, he had almost zero automation and had to rely on 24 hours ops to get to 100k by 2016 - because Toyota never believed the volume was permanent. But it kept coming. And coming. And coming.

TMNA wouldn't expand TMMTX (really couldn't, tho extra shifts increased prod, the facility was never designed for the volume) so every month for everyone of those year the were production constrained. There were periods when supply would be adequate - but mostly, esp some trims, it was a hunt. By 2015 it was clear production  would never meet demand at the two plants so Toyota, who'd just brought Mazda into the fold, stroked an agreement to move small car production from the nascent TMMGT plant in Mexico to Alabama, where Mazdas falling sales created excess production. This allowed Toyota to refit TMMGT for truck production and TMNA got the push, put Mike in charge of setting up a triangle trade of assembly, support and transport amongst the 3 sites.

But tho the decision was made, they were still short now.  In 2018 he got the 180M (30M was never reported as it went to supplier assistance) he needed to find another 60k. The site is fucking tight and even Mike couldn't eke out much beyond 180k, which was understood. So, with TMMTX - and now TMMBC capped - Bafan got on his horse and rode, converting TMMGT in record time, establishing an eventual designed , double shift, 300k production system  between the two. At the same time Toyota was prepping TMMTX to go full on Tundra/Sequoia, which had been prod constrained as well.

So what you're seeing, beyond the normal effect of change over bottle up, is excess capacity during seasonal doldrums for the first time North American trucks were made in Japan. Toyotathon's ON! Best time evah to grab a deal. . .unless, like most, they a wait for the new hawtness  coming. Your observation is both local and temporally limited (show up on the lot over last summer) - and kinda goes against about $450M to construct new facilities and the experience of 20 years. Nissan tho, has had none of these problems (relating to demand- production  imbalances merely investment inabilities)

Which Audi model are we talking about? AFAIK All relatively recent have a varying mix of electronic and mechanical activation. E Tron is electric motor. Ultra is predictive; can't do that 100% mechanical. The cheap seats like many VAGs get Haldex, tho Haldex 5 finally went away on the 3s with the 8Y. Torsens are great, why Toyota has used the LF1A in a number of "car" AWD applications. The large SUVs got Torsen centers since the turn of the century (sounds weird huh). Toyota owns the Torsen brand through JTEKT. I'm very curious tho how Audi is the best?

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I'm def not an Audi hater, merely have some slight understanding and always interested in counter views to fill in the gray areas. @Deerhurst

all this back room info is why i love the fact you are here

one question i have is that why does it seem only the likes of, traditionally Hyundai group and now young Tesla seem to believe in over 100% plant floor utilization when no one else even fathoms it?

most of Hyundai's plants are 110%+

@Alacrity

@LittlePony

Not so back room, but I'm glad the years of suffering I've imposed on many people in the industry (constant and often inane questioning) has some small benefit.

Can't speak to Korea Motors, but Toyota prioritizes TQM then production flexibility. My feeling, generally,  since institutional belief (guided by TPS) either or both is impacted, regardless of productivity and efficiency gains. @VVinci was an actual engineering exec so he's prolly has the best view.

Ugh, well, how long of an essay do you want?

Hyundai-Kia has been on a two decade growth tear. Basically, every new plant has come online at just about capacity. They have gone from 7% of the US market to 12% in less than a decade, passing Nissan, Honda, Stellantis and Ford. They are now #3 in the US, which doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to (traditionally, that was a 20-25% market share) but is still significant. Moves that large over the course of one model cycle are not common.

On the other side of the coin, a new plant is a massive CapEx that has to be depreciated over time, and for the US automakers are further hamstrung by UAW contracts that all but outright ban closures by making them so financially painful. So, it makes a lot more accounting sense to run a plant below capacity than it does to close it temporarily or permanently. On top of that, all it takes are 1-2 runaway hit models, and suddenly your plants are back at capacity, so you can't afford to not have spare capacity. Hyundai group has run into this with their SUVs, and while the dealers love it, I can assure you that many a$$ beatings are being handed out at corporate for not having more plant capacity.

Conversely, all it takes is one bad model cycle, and suddenly you're sitting there with a couple of billion in capital equipment at 40% capacity, and even more a$$ beatings are being handed out. The car business takes insane capital bets compared to any other consumer discretionary industry, with the attendant risks and rewards. Virtually every automaker on the planet is either subsidized by or partially/wholly owned by their home country, or both, EXCEPT for Ford and GM, for this very reason. Stellantis is more independent than most as well, but their international background is more complex.

Here in the US, we bailed out our automakers once, and it had some harsh terms - GM had to close Pontiac in favor of Buick because the latter was favored in China (three guesses who profited from that in the end) even though Pontiac sold considerably more cars here. Chrysler was sold off to a foreign entity. Ford didn't need the bailout because Nasser had already driven them to the brink of bankruptcy years earlier, and they had secured lines of credit before the crash hit. US white collar retirees took 50-70% retirement losses while the UAW walked away fat and happy. Foreign automakers were quietly propped up by their home governments with no such severe penalties.

Boom - real insider, in-the-know shit LP.   Place is always worth the tarriff, thx @VVinci @LittlePony

Someone should do a AWD thread cos I got questions.

Neat