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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:31:33 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Balu: This is all true but I think ITCHY-FINGER's point still stands because Hungary was noticeably better off than other Soviet block countries. I heard this from many who visited Hungary from Poland or Romania that to them Hungary felt like the West. While Hungarian communism still sucked, it didn't suck as bad as elsewhere with one exception being Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was even more open and less repressed than Hungary. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Balu: Originally Posted By Jozsi: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Capta: Still collecting your 30 pieces of silver? Are you on a per-post basis, or are you on retainer? Objectively, you are both right and wrong about “might makes right.” Have bigger, stronger peoples invaded and exterminated (or tried to exterminate) weaker peoples? Of course. Is it somehow incumbent on those weaker peoples to go quietly? No it isn’t. In fact, going quietly is the worst possible outcome for your people. Not only will you be exterminated, but even if you survive, the “moral force” (some would call it national mythos) is gone. If you aren’t willing to fight as a nation you’re done. That I would agree with. So, objectively, at what point does Russia stop, if it’s incumbent on smaller, weaker peoples to surrender to avoid extermination? Baltics? Smaller. Poland? Smaller. Finland? Smaller. Germany? Smaller. France? Smaller. And so on. And hey, Britain is smaller and weaker than Germany. So is France. Obviously in reality, the bigger powers don’t just get to roll their helmets out on on the field and profit. There are as many historical examples of smaller nations resisting and surviving as there are resisting and being exterminated. The bottom line here is that you personally have a desired outcome, probably due to domestic political hatred. That or you are being paid by the post. I’m not sure which is more despicable. I think the Budapest Uprising or 1956 Revolution in Hungary may be an example. The people rose up violently and defeated and kicked out the Russian garrison from Budapest. Russia then sent in a large invading force and despite valiant fighting against hopeless odds the anti-communist freedom fighters were defeated and 10K were killed. Russia re-took Hungary. But, Hungary gained more autonomy and respect from the Kremlin. Subsequent living standards were one of the best in the E. Block until the eventual collapse of the USSR. If you (as an individual or a Nation) show yourself to be tenacious you will be respected Living standards wasn't really too notch. We still had food shortages and we still had limited liberties and freedoms. We still had shortages of common household items and a lot of stuff had to be smuggled such as blue jeans and common items. Fuck..we couldn't get decent pizza sauce and our pizzas was basically salty ketchup until the end of communism. I still had to wait for pork when my number was called up and also meat on weird months. It wasn't perfect with people waiting for phones and even a decent fucken TV. I had to go to the post office to phone to the US. And when I phoned..there was a minder in the background from the secret police. Don't talk about stuff you have no experience with. I am American but I've lived in my fathers country during the last days of communism and it sucked. Big time. This is all true but I think ITCHY-FINGER's point still stands because Hungary was noticeably better off than other Soviet block countries. I heard this from many who visited Hungary from Poland or Romania that to them Hungary felt like the West. While Hungarian communism still sucked, it didn't suck as bad as elsewhere with one exception being Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was even more open and less repressed than Hungary. That is because they executed and cleaned up the blood well. My grandfather and great grandfather were executed in 1958 for what my dad did in 1956. They confiscated property...made our house into a 4 family town house...and basically erased my dad from his high school. I go to his high school and right there for 1956. All of the photos are gone. I experienced secret police brutally when I was caught in Budapest without permits and papers to leave Szeged. They bruised me in the thigh and knees and I had to take a taxi all the way from Budapest Főkapitanysag rendorseg back to Szeged because I couldn't walk. I paid the taxi guy over 60 bucks in 1990 to drive me 200 miles. I literally was crawling back to my flat. "The son of a traitor..."...was what I was called. I very nearly wanted to go home after that but I stayed because I wanted to give a fuck you to the system. In the end. It was still a fucken brutal system. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:34:44 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Not odd. They are desperate for troops. It’s the big oddity of all of this. They are not able to field enough troops, but they can artillery. They have so many shells, and supply those, but can’t do much else. I guess artillery is the only competency. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:39:43 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: It’s the big oddity of all of this. They are not able to field enough troops, but they can artillery. They have so many shells, and supply those, but can’t do much else. I guess artillery is the only competency. They have all the equipment and munitions in storage from when all their spending was military but plainly they assess that a widespread call up would threaten the regime. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:40:42 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1stID: If I was the leader of a country I'd try to keep my people from fighting a losing battle that will get more of them killed. Protect as much of your country as you can, play the long game, wait for things to change and for Russia to become either less powerful or better. Or ruin your country, see your cities destroyed and your people killed. I guess as long as you can gas huff yourself you're feeling good about yourself. So be it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1stID: Originally Posted By Circuits: Thank you for the frank response. Good to know where you stand. I'd rather fight, personally - but that might just be me. If you threaten to take what I have, the last thing I can guarantee is that I'll shoot you in the face as you do so if you haven't killed me already. Might not stop you - but that's what I'll do. If I was the leader of a country I'd try to keep my people from fighting a losing battle that will get more of them killed. Protect as much of your country as you can, play the long game, wait for things to change and for Russia to become either less powerful or better. Or ruin your country, see your cities destroyed and your people killed. I guess as long as you can gas huff yourself you're feeling good about yourself. So be it. For someone who claims to be former military, you sure do prefer the cowards approach. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:44:02 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: You can put anything you want to in your avatar. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By Capta: 1stID isnt a pacifist, he’s a quisling or a foreign influence agent. If he wasn’t selling Ukraine down the river he’d be selling America down the river. So weird how vets can shill for communist dictators You can put anything you want to in your avatar. That’s true. I’ll just put that account on ignore. No reason to read steaming piles of pravda. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:47:00 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: I have no issues at all helping them fight for freedom. They win, it is a win for everyone. It beats the hell out of wasting 2 decades and trillions on inbred morons with an iq of 80 that hates me. Poland and Ukraine have the potential to be the powerhouses of europe. We just need to get rid of the fucking shit show russia is, to give them a fair shot. Everyone in europe besides fucking france and germany are sending lots of aid, and materiel to blast russians. The two largest economies in eu are fucking socialist pussies that love putin cock. The rest are actually pitching in, some at a higher percentage of their budgets than we are. We built the weapons for decades to fight russians, and now we have other folks willing to use them to do just that, without risk to our military. I have zero issues with that over giving some goat fucking wipe his ass with his hand moron that hates me. Fuckin A man., well said. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:47:44 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Good references, I'm astonished as well about the numerous trench positions without cover in this war. I do not understand why we didn’t give the Ukrainians VT. VT would be a game changer to help them deal with their numerical disparity. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:49:59 PM EST
[#8]
"We need Chancellor Scholz's assurance that Germany will support Ukraine"
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article239322141/Ukraine-Krieg-Selenskyj-warnt-Scholz-vor-deutschem-Spagat-zwischen-Ukraine-und-Russland.html The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyj calls on Olaf Scholz to take a clearer stance on the Ukraine war. "We need Chancellor Scholz to assure us that Germany will support Ukraine. He and his government have to make a decision," he said in an interview with the ZDF "heute-journal" in Kyiv on Monday. "No balancing act should be attempted between Ukraine and relations with Russia". “Germany came a little later than some of our neighboring countries in terms of arms deliveries. That's a fact," criticized the head of state. The first to take action were the USA, Great Britain, the Baltic States and other eastern EU countries. Initially, Germany and France only supported Ukraine politically and rhetorically. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:51:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: stone-age]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: For someone who claims to be former military, you sure do prefer the cowards approach. I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for Ukraine to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:57:40 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Circuits: I have so "twisted" and you don't have to agree for me to have done so. You're arguing to the gallery, now, as to whether your respun analogy is more correct than my "twist" - but neither of us gets to decide that. My room may never be clean. Often I don't make my bed, either, before going to work. So what? Please put your own country of residence for all to see. Or leave it blank. I aslo hope Ukraine wins this war. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:00:43 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: I have no issues at all helping them fight for freedom. They win, it is a win for everyone. It beats the hell out of wasting 2 decades and trillions on inbred morons with an iq of 80 that hates me. Poland and Ukraine have the potential to be the powerhouses of europe. We just need to get rid of the fucking shit show russia is, to give them a fair shot. Everyone in europe besides fucking france and germany are sending lots of aid, and materiel to blast russians. The two largest economies in eu are fucking socialist pussies that love putin cock. The rest are actually pitching in, some at a higher percentage of their budgets than we are. We built the weapons for decades to fight russians, and now we have other folks willing to use them to do just that, without risk to our military. I have zero issues with that over giving some goat fucking wipe his ass with his hand moron that hates me. Just a clarification - France has sent or is sending Caesar 155mm howitzers and other sigificant lethal aid - so I'm not sure I would put them the same as Germany at this point (I don't disagree that they could probably do more, or that Macron's talks with Putin are likely not helpful). In terms of Germany, it seems the companies and many of the people are wanting to help but the leadership is slow rolling (to appear to be helping but not in a timely manner). |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:03:12 PM EST
[#12]
https://t.me/Pravda_Gerashchenko/25302
"Ukrainian army was trained for 8 years, in fact" - Colonel of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces about the failure of the "special operation" in Ukraine Details: “It was not possible to undermine the resistance of Ukraine from the inside, we had to retreat. Now the Russian army has switched to conventional military operations, so to speak, to a “head-on collision” with trained soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine,” says Vladimir Kvachkov, a retired GRU colonel of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, how and why it failed Putin's "special operation". Video at link. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:04:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: AROKIE]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: For someone who claims to be former military, you sure do prefer the cowards approach. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By 1stID: Originally Posted By Circuits: Thank you for the frank response. Good to know where you stand. I'd rather fight, personally - but that might just be me. If you threaten to take what I have, the last thing I can guarantee is that I'll shoot you in the face as you do so if you haven't killed me already. Might not stop you - but that's what I'll do. If I was the leader of a country I'd try to keep my people from fighting a losing battle that will get more of them killed. Protect as much of your country as you can, play the long game, wait for things to change and for Russia to become either less powerful or better. Or ruin your country, see your cities destroyed and your people killed. I guess as long as you can gas huff yourself you're feeling good about yourself. So be it. For someone who claims to be former military, you sure do prefer the cowards approach. Best to just ignore that guy. He just gets off making fun of folks supporting ukraine. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:04:14 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for them to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. Blowing the living shit out of the countryside, moving 1000m, and blowing the living shit out of the countryside only works for a while. You have to have troops to hold what you blew the living shit out of, and you have to have viable supply lines to continue to blow the living shit out of stuff. russia will eventually make a big ditch with their artillery, because it's about all they are able to do. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:06:13 PM EST
[#15]
https://t.me/Pravda_Gerashchenko/25301
Kremlin accelerates process of annexation of Mariupol and Donetsk region Details: "Yesterday, the Minister of Education of Russia told how the educational process will take place in the schools of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporozhye and Kherson regions... of Russia. No quasi-republics and satellites. Nobody is hiding anymore. The banking system in Mariupol is being built under the Russian bank. All cards there will be, but Russians. No games in the bank "dnr". In Donetsk, experts in all areas will adapt everything to Russian legislation.", writes Petr Andryushchenko, adviser to the head of Mariupol. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:08:09 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: That is because they executed and cleaned up the blood well. My grandfather and great grandfather were executed in 1958 for what my dad did in 1956. They confiscated property...made our house into a 4 family town house...and basically erased my dad from his high school. I go to his high school and right there for 1956. All of the photos are gone. I experienced secret police brutally when I was caught in Budapest without permits and papers to leave Szeged. They bruised me in the thigh and knees and I had to take a taxi all the way from Budapest Főkapitanysag rendorseg back to Szeged because I couldn't walk. I paid the taxi guy over 60 bucks in 1990 to drive me 200 miles. I literally was crawling back to my flat. "The son of a traitor..."...was what I was called. I very nearly wanted to go home after that but I stayed because I wanted to give a fuck you to the system. In the end. It was still a fucken brutal system. Please forgive me but do you currently live in Hungary? Not saying you, but I hate when folks decide to use whatever country, or state for that matter that makes things confusing. Example bought a bunch of AR mags on the EE, seller profile said he was from Texas. No big deal but all 3 boxes I received over a few weeks came from Washington state. Sorry for the rant. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:08:16 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wreckshooter: I do not understand why we didn’t give the Ukrainians VT. VT would be a game changer to help them deal with their numerical disparity. I have seen some footage, the CEASAR artillery footage where they were showing the fusing options on the rounds, they apparently have airbust, but there is no footage of any of their artillery used this way apparently. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:09:52 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for them to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By sq40: For someone who claims to be former military, you sure do prefer the cowards approach. I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for them to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. He rubs me the wrong way on a personal level because of his defeatist attitude. It’s as simple as that. I just don’t like him. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:09:52 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: That is because they executed and cleaned up the blood well. My grandfather and great grandfather were executed in 1958 for what my dad did in 1956. They confiscated property...made our house into a 4 family town house...and basically erased my dad from his high school. I go to his high school and right there for 1956. All of the photos are gone. I experienced secret police brutally when I was caught in Budapest without permits and papers to leave Szeged. They bruised me in the thigh and knees and I had to take a taxi all the way from Budapest Főkapitanysag rendorseg back to Szeged because I couldn't walk. I paid the taxi guy over 60 bucks in 1990 to drive me 200 miles. I literally was crawling back to my flat. "The son of a traitor..."...was what I was called. I very nearly wanted to go home after that but I stayed because I wanted to give a fuck you to the system. In the end. It was still a fucken brutal system. I will never forget a dinner with friends in Hungary. Before dinner- "Don't speak in front of the neighbors, they'll inform the police." After dinner- Don't speak until after the children go to bed, they'll inform their teachers." |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:10:44 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nomansland: Just a clarification - France has sent or is sending Caesar 155mm howitzers and other sigificant lethal aid - so I'm not sure I would put them the same as Germany at this point (I don't disagree that they could probably do more, or that Macron's talks with Putin are likely not helpful). In terms of Germany, it seems the companies and many of the people are wanting to help but the leadership is slow rolling (to appear to be helping but not in a timely manner). They are having trouble deciding what to do in germany because they have a gazprom dick in their ass, and putin's tiny cock in their mouth. France will do what it absolutely has to, and nothing more. They have no problems at all telling Ukraine to give up territory. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:16:53 PM EST
[#21]
The military of the Russian Federation "covers" the evacuating residents of Melitopol - how much does the fare cost.  Every day rashists come up with new obstacles for those who want to leave Melitopol. This time the occupiers decided to work as customs officers. According to our readers, DNR members are standing at the checkpoints to Vasilyevka today. And they are considered the most insatiable. And, if before, they asked for a maximum of 100 hryvnias, cigarettes, moreover, exclusively Ukrainian, today the occupiers have already raised the fee. - From each car that travels with people, the Russian military began to take money at the checkpoint. So, next to the cafe "Chumatsky Stan" (Green Guy) they ask from 500 to 1000 hryvnias, - RIA-Melitopol readers write, who nevertheless managed to pass through the post. https://t.me/riamelitopol/58257 |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:22:49 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for them to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. I agree. He has a differing opinion of how things are going. To "me" he hasn't been trolling. And I sincerely hope Ukraine wins this war. Very sad to see the death and destruction. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:31:22 PM EST
[#23]
It’s one thing to say I just don’t see how Ukraine wins. He turns the corner when he talks about hour they should bend over and bite the pillow.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:34:51 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: That is because they executed and cleaned up the blood well. My grandfather and great grandfather were executed in 1958 for what my dad did in 1956. They confiscated property...made our house into a 4 family town house...and basically erased my dad from his high school. I go to his high school and right there for 1956. All of the photos are gone. I experienced secret police brutally when I was caught in Budapest without permits and papers to leave Szeged. They bruised me in the thigh and knees and I had to take a taxi all the way from Budapest Főkapitanysag rendorseg back to Szeged because I couldn't walk. I paid the taxi guy over 60 bucks in 1990 to drive me 200 miles. I literally was crawling back to my flat. "The son of a traitor..."...was what I was called. I very nearly wanted to go home after that but I stayed because I wanted to give a fuck you to the system. In the end. It was still a fucken brutal system. I believe you brother. COMMUNISM was a big shit sandwich and a lot of people suffered immensely. I cant get into a "who had it worse" on an individual level but "generally" Hungary had it a little better AFTER the revolution, especially in the 80's. Also your family took part in a FAILED revolution and it's lucky anyone survived! You should be very proud you fought back. Oszinte Reszvetemet (sp?) for you father and grandfather. I would love to share "stories" with you over some palinka and beer. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:37:07 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: Please put your own country of residence for all to see. Or leave it blank. I aslo hope Ukraine wins this war. I am a native-born American, who lives in the state of Colorado. My profile proclaimed that for over 20 years. As for now? I'll put what I like in my profile - just as others do and have done. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:37:29 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: That is because they executed and cleaned up the blood well. My grandfather and great grandfather were executed in 1958 for what my dad did in 1956. They confiscated property...made our house into a 4 family town house...and basically erased my dad from his high school. I go to his high school and right there for 1956. All of the photos are gone. I experienced secret police brutally when I was caught in Budapest without permits and papers to leave Szeged. They bruised me in the thigh and knees and I had to take a taxi all the way from Budapest Főkapitanysag rendorseg back to Szeged because I couldn't walk. I paid the taxi guy over 60 bucks in 1990 to drive me 200 miles. I literally was crawling back to my flat. "The son of a traitor..."...was what I was called. I very nearly wanted to go home after that but I stayed because I wanted to give a fuck you to the system. In the end. It was still a fucken brutal system. Condolences. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:41:40 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: I agree. He has a differing opinion of how things are going. To "me" he hasn't been trolling. And I sincerely hope Ukraine wins this war. Very sad to see the death and destruction. It's a difference of opinion about the virtue of resisting violence and aggression, defending your family and nation, and fighting back against an invasion even if the odds are against you. Same "hostility" if someone voiced support for Trudeau and his "citizens do not have the right to defend themselves" BS. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:47:50 PM EST
[#28]
Well, I guess Putin was right about Nazis in Europe. Looks like the Germans are bringing back the Panther.
Rheinmetall Panther |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:52:56 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Blowing the living shit out of the countryside, moving 1000m, and blowing the living shit out of the countryside only works for a while. You have to have troops to hold what you blew the living shit out of, and you have to have viable supply lines to continue to blow the living shit out of stuff. russia will eventually make a big ditch with their artillery, because it's about all they are able to do. I think it's mostly about pride at this point. But if they manage to keep control of a couple key areas they will say they are winning or have won, or freed the area from nazis or whatever. I don't know how long they can keep up just shelling and crawling forward, or being pushed back and so shelling the area they lost into absolute rubble. But it does look to me like Ukraine is going to need a lot more dead russian soldiers, and that's difficult when they are protected by a wall of cannon shells. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:54:39 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: I agree. He has a differing opinion of how things are going. To "me" he hasn't been trolling. And I sincerely hope Ukraine wins this war. Very sad to see the death and destruction. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: Originally Posted By stone-age: I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for them to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. I agree. He has a differing opinion of how things are going. To "me" he hasn't been trolling. And I sincerely hope Ukraine wins this war. Very sad to see the death and destruction. No. Having a differing interpretation of how things are playing out is one thing. He's explicitly advocating for Ukraine to give up because they are weak and Russia is strong. Combined with a completely incorrect assumption that doing so would somehow make things easier for Ukraine and Ukrainians, despite Russia's stated goal of complete genocide of the Ukrainian people and culture. That's not a difference of opinion, that's using Russian propaganda talking points to gaslight anybody who cares about the situation. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:00:28 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LoBrau: No. Having a differing interpretation of how things are playing out is one thing. He's explicitly advocating for Ukraine to give up because they are weak and Russia is strong. Combined with a completely incorrect assumption that doing so would somehow make things easier for Ukraine and Ukrainians, despite Russia's stated goal of complete genocide of the Ukrainian people and culture. That's not a difference of opinion, that's using Russian propaganda talking points to gaslight anybody who cares about the situation. I just don't see it the way you do. As far as it looks to me, he is saying that negotiating early on would give Ukraine better results than continuing to fight. That's it. In his opinion. He is also not mentioning the effects of a nation that refuses to surrender, and I think that matters. I think he figures it matters less in the big picture. He just figures russia is too big and too ruthless. Sometimes the good guys lose. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:02:48 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: Please forgive me but do you currently live in Hungary? Not saying you, but I hate when folks decide to use whatever country, or state for that matter that makes things confusing. Example bought a bunch of AR mags on the EE, seller profile said he was from Texas. No big deal but all 3 boxes I received over a few weeks came from Washington state. Sorry for the rant. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: Originally Posted By Jozsi: That is because they executed and cleaned up the blood well. My grandfather and great grandfather were executed in 1958 for what my dad did in 1956. They confiscated property...made our house into a 4 family town house...and basically erased my dad from his high school. I go to his high school and right there for 1956. All of the photos are gone. I experienced secret police brutally when I was caught in Budapest without permits and papers to leave Szeged. They bruised me in the thigh and knees and I had to take a taxi all the way from Budapest Főkapitanysag rendorseg back to Szeged because I couldn't walk. I paid the taxi guy over 60 bucks in 1990 to drive me 200 miles. I literally was crawling back to my flat. "The son of a traitor..."...was what I was called. I very nearly wanted to go home after that but I stayed because I wanted to give a fuck you to the system. In the end. It was still a fucken brutal system. Please forgive me but do you currently live in Hungary? Not saying you, but I hate when folks decide to use whatever country, or state for that matter that makes things confusing. Example bought a bunch of AR mags on the EE, seller profile said he was from Texas. No big deal but all 3 boxes I received over a few weeks came from Washington state. Sorry for the rant. I live part time in Budapest and part of the year in Oregon. I work for Fég part time and teach at the private and public schools. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:05:16 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: I live part time in Budapest and part of the year in Oregon. I work for Fég part time and teach at the private and public schools. I am a fan of the PA63.  Poor man's ppk. Mags are hard to find and expensive though. 
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:10:25 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Billy_Ringo: Have noticed that the Russian trolls usually post in pairs or multiples to make it look like there is "agreement" on whatever daily BS they spew. They'll usually post later in the evening so that their messaging stays up longer without much countering opinion. Have seen it here and in other forums. A little like artillery, attack in force, hit a designated target when counter-battery may be at a minimum and then disperse and run for the hills before any appreciable return fire is received. In a sea of morons spouting off on how "they'll shoot invaders in the face" and that they've changed their location to support Ukraine with a Ukie flag in their avatar, you're worried about a couple of posters dishing out some reality. Maybe the "Russian trolls" have real jobs during the day.... |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:12:27 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OD-Man: In a sea of morons spouting off on how "they'll shoot invaders in the face" and that they've changed their location to support Ukraine with a Ukie flag in their avatar, you're worried about a couple of posters dishing out some reality. Happy to be a nexus for your ire. 
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USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:12:29 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LoBrau: No. Having a differing interpretation of how things are playing out is one thing. He's explicitly advocating for Ukraine to give up because they are weak and Russia is strong. Combined with a completely incorrect assumption that doing so would somehow make things easier for Ukraine and Ukrainians, despite Russia's stated goal of complete genocide of the Ukrainian people and culture. That's not a difference of opinion, that's using Russian propaganda talking points to gaslight anybody who cares about the situation. How does that equal "trolling" or worthy of being continually called a paid Russian stooge? I'll be honest if I think about it, there is some argument in saying hey, if we pro/con everything out, if we sign an agreement to hand over Luhansk/Donetsk (forgive any misspellings I'm on mobile), then take 5 years to regroup, further ties/ alliances with the West, we'll be better off. At this point the eastern land is pretty wrecked and abandoned by the Ukranian citizens. If you avoid a bunch of further death and destruction, rebuild your economy, further improve and Westernize your military with foreign aid, there is certainly an argument that you would be better off. Especially as Russia continues to wither economically and demographically. I think this war has shown the concern about Russian ground troops overrunning any more of Europe is pretty unwarranted. I'm not saying this is what Ukraine should do or even if it would actually be better long term, but it's not crazy to think so. I do also think Ukraine has a right to worry about the continuing flow of weapons and ammunition from the West long term. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:15:34 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Circuits: If I can't help everyone, I will help no one. Noted. So true, you can only change your avatar flag so many times..... Shot anyone in the face today? 
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CO, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:23:22 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: I don't like recent trends at all. I fear that if we do not massively supply Ukraine with artillery in a timely fashion (i.e. they can't wait 3 months for this help to arrive), there is a very real danger Ukrainian lines in the east will collapse. People in the west have been resting on their laurels since Russia's failed attempts to take Kyiv. The war today is an entirely different animal than the war in April. Ukraine won the first one. They are losing this one. Ukrainian forces cannot hold up indefinitely when outnumbered by Russian artillery pieces at a 10-1 or even 15-1 ratio. We've got to start changing this ratio in a hurry. Otherwise, Russia is going to succeed in the east. And if they succeed there, they can start devoting more resources to the south. It is time to stop pussy-footing around and give them the equipment they need in the quantities it is needed in. We cannot allow Russia to succeed in Ukraine. If we don't have hundreds of spare M198 and M109 howitzers on the ground in Ukraine by the middle of this week, then we as a nation are not at all serious about stopping Russia in Ukraine. C-17's need to be landing in Poland one right after another. Fuck the excuses. Lets get it done. According to wiki, which is what I am going by, Ukraine had 2000 artillery pieces and Russia about 4000, with 16000 in reserve...somewhere. I cant see the Russians mobilizing artillery much more then they mobilize their tanks. And 20000 artillery pieces sure as hell could blow a 40km hole in the line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces#Field_artillery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces#Equipment_summary So bottom line just because some guy said 10:1, its not. At this point, seems to me the problem is ammunition. I assume, sitting here at my laptop, that the intel community is aware of what's up. If the Russians have unlimited ammo, the Ukrainians don't, and we don't resupply them, they fall. Finger pointing ensues. I assume, historically, if the Ukrainians fire counterbattery and the Russians fire at Ukrainian infantry, if you interview Ukrainian infantry it probably seems pretty bad. If there is a disparity in shells going out vs coming in, then that could be ammo. It also could be that the Ukrainians are shooting at Russian artillery and the Russians are shooting at Ukrainian front lines, which is a dumb area target. The problem could be, how much freefloating combloc artillery ammo is there outside of Russia? At some point they need Western artillery and Western ammo. Or armed UAVs, etc...to attrit Russian guns. This was pointed out over 1000 pages ago. If the administration gets reports of all this, and doesn't resupply or equip them, to quote a former POTUS, don't underestimate the ability of this administration to screw things up. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:29:14 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: He rubs me the wrong way on a personal level because of his defeatist attitude. It’s as simple as that. I just don’t like him. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By sq40: For someone who claims to be former military, you sure do prefer the cowards approach. I don't get the hostility. He believes Ukraine can't win this. That's all. When this war started most of the world believed russia would trample Ukraine immediately, they were wrong, (I was wrong). Because russia ran in under poor conditions and strung out their troops and gave Ukraine a perfect chance to maximize guerilla tactics, which they did beautifully. Now russia has backed all their forces together close to where they can get resupplied and they are endlessly firing artillery. They are now a lot more dangerous and a lot more difficult to get to. This would be a fantastic time for them to get a lot more weapons that can reach out, lots of them. Lots and lots. I don't know how else Ukraine pushes out a wall of artillery. He rubs me the wrong way on a personal level because of his defeatist attitude. It’s as simple as that. I just don’t like him. It's gross because it directly extrapolates to such behavior if the US was ever in a similar situation. All those people in Ukraine aren't fighting because Zelensky is personally forcing them to. If the people weren't interested in defending their nation, they wouldn't be doing it. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:34:14 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OD-Man: So true, you can only change your avatar flag so many times..... Shot anyone in the face today? You coming on my property to take what's mine? Day's still young. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:35:00 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: How does that equal "trolling" or worthy of being continually called a paid Russian stooge? I'll be honest if I think about it, there is some argument in saying hey, if we pro/con everything out, if we sign an agreement to hand over Luhansk/Donetsk (forgive any misspellings I'm on mobile), then take 5 years to regroup, further ties/ alliances with the West, we'll be better off. At this point the eastern land is pretty wrecked and abandoned by the Ukranian citizens. If you avoid a bunch of further death and destruction, rebuild your economy, further improve and Westernize your military with foreign aid, there is certainly an argument that you would be better off. Especially as Russia continues to wither economically and demographically. I think this war has shown the concern about Russian ground troops overrunning any more of Europe is pretty unwarranted. I'm not saying this is what Ukraine should do or even if it would actually be better long term, but it's not crazy to think so. I do also think Ukraine has a right to worry about the continuing flow of weapons and ammunition from the West long term. Well, a large portion of their industrial base, and all of the gas and oil deposits just happen to be where russia is now sitting. Nothing like giving away all the things you need to get your economy back. Until russia is finally beaten, this will continue until they control europe. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:35:58 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally...Posted...By...JustaGunNut: It's...gross...because...it...directly...extrapolates...to...such...behavior...if...the...US...was...ever...in...a...similar...situation. All...those...people...in...Ukraine...aren't...fighting...because...Zelensky...is...personally...forcing...them...to....If...the...people...weren't...interested...in...defending...their...nation,...they...wouldn't...be...doing...it. is...that...why...its...illegal...for...fighting...age...males...to...leave...the...country? we...would...have...a...worse...problem...in...the...US we'd...be...totally...fucked. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:41:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: JustaGunNut]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Denwad: is...that...why...its...illegal...for...fighting...age...males...to...leave...the...country? we...would...have...a...worse...problem...in...the...US we'd...be...totally...fucked. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Denwad: Originally...Posted...By...JustaGunNut: It's...gross...because...it...directly...extrapolates...to...such...behavior...if...the...US...was...ever...in...a...similar...situation. All...those...people...in...Ukraine...aren't...fighting...because...Zelensky...is...personally...forcing...them...to....If...the...people...weren't...interested...in...defending...their...nation,...they...wouldn't...be...doing...it. is...that...why...its...illegal...for...fighting...age...males...to...leave...the...country? we...would...have...a...worse...problem...in...the...US we'd...be...totally...fucked. Don't even want to know whats running in the background causing those periods. Do you think the forced conscription makes the majority or minority of Ukrainian military? Do you think the conscripts are worth anything on the battlefield? I'd be surprised if they even allowed them near combat and instead probably use them for menial logistics tasks since they can't be relied on. It happens in every nation undergoing an existential threat and has a long history. I disagree with your sentiment. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:42:52 PM EST
[#44]
Waiting for NeverTrumper/Bidensky-buttfuckers to start blaming losses in UKR on Trump, NRA, DeSantis, my dog...etc.
Team Zelensky has seen some losses and now everyone is looking for a scapegoat. "Success has many fathers, failure is an orphaned bastard" |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:44:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: Denwad]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally...Posted...By...JustaGunNut: Don't...even...want...to...know...whats...running...in...the...background...causing...those...periods. Do...you...think...the...forced...conscription...makes...the...majority...or...minority...of...Ukrainian...military?...Do...you...think...the...conscripts...are...worth...anything...on...the...battlefield?...I'd...be...surprised...if...they...even...allowed...them...near...combat...and...instead...probably...use...them...for...menial...logistics...tasks...since...they...can't...be...relied...on....It...happens...in...every...nation...undergoing...an...existential...threat...and...has...a...long...history....I...disagree...with...your...sentiment. I...bet...that...many...conscripts...rise...to...the...occasion....Many...make...excellent...soldiers.... (EDIT)...i...have...no...idea...whats...causing...the...periods...to...appear. Fuck...the...EU,...we...need...to...play...Team...America...world...police...and...get...over...there...and...clean...house.... I...used...to...think...that...being...Team...America...world...police...was...stupid,...now...that...i've...seen...what...happens...when...the...rest...of...the...world...tries...to...rise...up...to...American...Hegemony,...I'm...of...the...mind...we...need...to...do...what...we...did...in...WW... bomb...everyone...to...bits...so...we...are...on...top...for...70...years.... |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:51:25 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JustaGunNut: Don't even want to know whats running in the background causing those periods. Do you think the forced conscription makes the majority or minority of Ukrainian military? Do you think the conscripts are worth anything on the battlefield? I'd be surprised if they even allowed them near combat and instead probably use them for menial logistics tasks since they can't be relied on. It happens in every nation undergoing an existential threat and has a long history. I disagree with your sentiment. I think they have lots and lots of volunteers going through training. There will always be ones who won't fight, but for the most part, they are motivated. Unlike the conscripts in the russian army. Hell the russians are forcing 65yo males into combat in the areas they control. Do you think those eligible for retirement are motivated to fight with a weeks training? Ukraine is just now sending a bunch of troops that have been training since right after the invasion. It takes a while to train soldiers in the basics, and Ukraine is at least trying to avoid sending untrained people into the mix, unlike russia. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:59:11 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: According to wiki, which is what I am going by, Ukraine had 2000 artillery pieces and Russia about 4000, with 16000 in reserve...somewhere. I cant see the Russians mobilizing artillery much more then they mobilize their tanks. And 20000 artillery pieces sure as hell could blow a 40km hole in the line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces#Field_artillery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces#Equipment_summary Ukraine has 1500 Soviet pieces and limited ammo for them. They have 150 western pieces with ammo. It’s a difficult mismatch. So bottom line just because some guy said 10:1, its not. At this point, seems to me the problem is ammunition. I assume, sitting here at my laptop, that the intel community is aware of what's up. If the Russians have unlimited ammo, the Ukrainians don't, and we don't resupply them, they fall. Finger pointing ensues. I assume, historically, if the Ukrainians fire counterbattery and the Russians fire at Ukrainian infantry, if you interview Ukrainian infantry it probably seems pretty bad. If there is a disparity in shells going out vs coming in, then that could be ammo. It also could be that the Ukrainians are shooting at Russian artillery and the Russians are shooting at Ukrainian front lines, which is a dumb area target. The problem could be, how much freefloating combloc artillery ammo is there outside of Russia? At some point they need Western artillery and Western ammo. Or armed UAVs, etc...to attrit Russian guns. This was pointed out over 1000 pages ago. If the administration gets reports of all this, and doesn't resupply or equip them, to quote a former POTUS, don't underestimate the ability of this administration to screw things up. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 6:00:59 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Denwad: (EDIT)...i...have...no...idea...whats...causing...the...periods...to...appear. Some info here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Spaces-replaced-by-three-periods-bug-FIXED-Fix-in-OP-/3-2555959/ |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 6:19:46 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FDC: Some info here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Spaces-replaced-by-three-periods-bug-FIXED-Fix-in-OP-/3-2555959/ maybe it helped |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/13/2022 6:32:19 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: How does that equal "trolling" or worthy of being continually called a paid Russian stooge? I'll be honest if I think about it, there is some argument in saying hey, if we pro/con everything out, if we sign an agreement to hand over Luhansk/Donetsk (forgive any misspellings I'm on mobile), then take 5 years to regroup, further ties/ alliances with the West, we'll be better off. At this point the eastern land is pretty wrecked and abandoned by the Ukranian citizens. If you avoid a bunch of further death and destruction, rebuild your economy, further improve and Westernize your military with foreign aid, there is certainly an argument that you would be better off. Especially as Russia continues to wither economically and demographically. I think this war has shown the concern about Russian ground troops overrunning any more of Europe is pretty unwarranted. I'm not saying this is what Ukraine should do or even if it would actually be better long term, but it's not crazy to think so. I do also think Ukraine has a right to worry about the continuing flow of weapons and ammunition from the West long term. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amanbearpig: Originally Posted By LoBrau: No. Having a differing interpretation of how things are playing out is one thing. He's explicitly advocating for Ukraine to give up because they are weak and Russia is strong. Combined with a completely incorrect assumption that doing so would somehow make things easier for Ukraine and Ukrainians, despite Russia's stated goal of complete genocide of the Ukrainian people and culture. That's not a difference of opinion, that's using Russian propaganda talking points to gaslight anybody who cares about the situation. How does that equal "trolling" or worthy of being continually called a paid Russian stooge? I'll be honest if I think about it, there is some argument in saying hey, if we pro/con everything out, if we sign an agreement to hand over Luhansk/Donetsk (forgive any misspellings I'm on mobile), then take 5 years to regroup, further ties/ alliances with the West, we'll be better off. At this point the eastern land is pretty wrecked and abandoned by the Ukranian citizens. If you avoid a bunch of further death and destruction, rebuild your economy, further improve and Westernize your military with foreign aid, there is certainly an argument that you would be better off. Especially as Russia continues to wither economically and demographically. I think this war has shown the concern about Russian ground troops overrunning any more of Europe is pretty unwarranted. I'm not saying this is what Ukraine should do or even if it would actually be better long term, but it's not crazy to think so. I do also think Ukraine has a right to worry about the continuing flow of weapons and ammunition from the West long term. Because to follow that train of thought to its logical conclusion, as has been pointed out multiple times now, anybody who is threatened by Russia needs to give up immediately for the good of their people. That being the case, where does it end? It doesn't. Never mind that "for the good of their people" doesn't even exist in the first place when Russia's stated goal is the total elimination of that people, in every way. |
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