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Posted: 9/10/2023 5:54:33 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam:
Shit! and there were survivors. Probably like swiss cheese but they ran away somehow!!! Amazing. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 5:58:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5sWh9lbwAAPmvk?format=jpg&name=large
This has been my fear. As the UA makes slow progress, the Russians have time to keep fortifying and building defenses continuously in front of them. It's easier and faster to lay minefields and dig trenches than it is to clear them under fire. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 5:59:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Milley should have been hung for treason a couple of years ago. Not even kidding. What he said about pledging to subvert the United States for China to avert a war or whatever. Outright treasonous. He literally admitted to a commitment to warn the CCP of any imminent US attack. Fucking asshole. Yup. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 5:59:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnnyC: Yep, the KrakenSDR was pretty much designed to DF anything you want. They even had some passive radar code that unfortunately isn't available anymore. The issue I see is that while 30W output of the jammer isn't hard to DF on the scale of the battlefield, something drone sized may not be able to carry gear with enough precision to actually pinpont the tank in the middle of that RF noise. 30W isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, but the difference between torching a T-90 and missing by 50m might look like the same thing to the drone DF hardware. A Kraken will get you to the neighborhood, maybe even the house, but would it be able to smack the top armor of a tank? Unsure. I think it's still a bit aways from a Khyber Pass HARM, but I'm positive smarter men and women than I are working on this exact problem right now. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnnyC: Originally Posted By planemaker: I seem to recall a fairly inexpensive 4 antenna DF unit that somebody built. IIRC, it used an FPGA. There were some YT videos of it being used while driving around. Can't remember the name of it but it was designed to be inexpensive and compact and something a hobbyist could put together from a kit. Seems like you could put that on a drone pretty easily. Yep, the KrakenSDR was pretty much designed to DF anything you want. They even had some passive radar code that unfortunately isn't available anymore. The issue I see is that while 30W output of the jammer isn't hard to DF on the scale of the battlefield, something drone sized may not be able to carry gear with enough precision to actually pinpont the tank in the middle of that RF noise. 30W isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, but the difference between torching a T-90 and missing by 50m might look like the same thing to the drone DF hardware. A Kraken will get you to the neighborhood, maybe even the house, but would it be able to smack the top armor of a tank? Unsure. I think it's still a bit aways from a Khyber Pass HARM, but I'm positive smarter men and women than I are working on this exact problem right now. That was the one I was thinking about. It could certainly be made small enough to put on a small fixed-wing to fly around and locate the emitters. You could even use an on-board EO or IR camera slewed by the DF result to see what is emitting. I'd be surprised if the Ukrainians weren't working on something like that. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:00:01 PM EDT
[#5]
1420 asks a pretty tough question: are we losing?
 Are we losing? |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:00:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Yeah, it's always dangerous to help a little or to go half way. You end up with EVERYONE mad at you. My best advice to Musk and Hungary. Pick a fucking side. If you cannot tell who is good and who is bad then fuck off and STFU. Exactly! Musk disappoints me greatly. Turns out he is just a clown with a bit of money. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:01:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Video! https://twitter.com/pstyle0ne1/status/1700478981630255159 Home-made machine remotely controlled for clearing anti-personnel mines, which will soon be handed over to the Ukrainian military https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_3605-2948083.jpg Amazing field expedient ingenuity. I bet the Russians are drooling over those tires.
That design looks super effective. But the most effective aspect of it is: - it looks super cheap. For a vehicle specifically intended to set off detonations, cheap is exactly what you want. Cheap, easy to copy and replace, and effective. While it’s intended only for anti-personnel mines, I wonder if the wheels would effectively set off the large Russian anti-tank mines? |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:04:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: 1420 asks a pretty tough question: are we losing?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3gkl1g1T7c"Its scary to answer that." The fact that many/most Russians are scared to speak their mind honestly and forthrightly speaks volumes. I'd love to hear from the_ressurector again at some point to get his story on his new life in Russia. Assuming he's still alive. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:06:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Ok, who is buying?
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:19:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Anyone seen this documentary on Belarus? Ties into some of the UK War but ironically some of the ties between Pootie and Lukashenko are fraying it seems.
Has to do also with subverted elections.  Inside Belarus: A Totalitarian State and Russia's Last Frontier in Europe |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:35:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryThat was really interesting, thanks @m35ben |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:41:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RockNwood]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiberius: Musk has revealed himself to be a security risk. At best he’s a useful idiot, at worst he’s in effect a traitor. Is it in the interests of the US to have this man involved in critical fields here? What if he decides our space efforts are problematic? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiberius: Originally Posted By lorazepam:
I reached out to a source close to the Ukrainian drone programme about these claims. They confirmed Starlink had been previously enabled in the area in question - which is why Ukraine had used USVs that relied on Starlink for navigation - and that Musk had "turned it off".
My understanding - which I reported six months ago - is that Starlink was not only geofenced but also programmed to stop working at the kind of speeds drones work at. Ie it was active blocking. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5qjkTsXgAA0pjt?format=jpg&name=medium Musk has revealed himself to be a security risk. At best he’s a useful idiot, at worst he’s in effect a traitor. Is it in the interests of the US to have this man involved in critical fields here? What if he decides our space efforts are problematic? Putting aside his decision, and focusing on the lead up to that, he met with the Russian ambassador to the US. The ambassador said that attack would result in WW3. Did Musk leak info about an impending naval drone attack to the ambassador?. Did he share that he had been asked to turn on, extend, or keep on Starlink in Crimea for the purpose of a drone attack? Why would the ambassador make that warning statement unless he had been provided enough details to make such an assessment? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:46:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: That was the one I was thinking about. It could certainly be made small enough to put on a small fixed-wing to fly around and locate the emitters. You could even use an on-board EO or IR camera slewed by the DF result to see what is emitting. I'd be surprised if the Ukrainians weren't working on something like that. You could absolutely shrink the components, but even at its current size they're pretty easy to desense even at low power once you start getting closer to the source of the RF. Although with some pretty robust filtering you could alleviate that some. Maybe some progressive filtering that could prioritize higher frequencies as it got closer to the target, propagation distances being shorter the higher they get in frequency, thus decreasing the area of effect and increasing precision in targeting? I dunno. Just thinking out loud. I doubt it would take too long for the Ukes to figure out how to get around the limitations. A self-guiding, beam riding, anti-tank drone sounds handier than a pocket on a shirt these days. I could also see the Russians being dumb enough to just jizz all over the entire spectrum with that thing, knocking out their own communications as well, so it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up turning them off just so they could hear their own radios. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: One has to wonder how much RFI is emitted into their own systems with that. Meaning, yeah, they might scramble a stock DJI but now their voice comms, and their own C2 links to their own shit don't work anymore. Weren't there reports of that earlier in the war? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
One has to wonder how much RFI is emitted into their own systems with that. Meaning, yeah, they might scramble a stock DJI but now their voice comms, and their own C2 links to their own shit don't work anymore. Weren't there reports of that earlier in the war? Yes. Several Russians complained that when their EW was working they had no comms. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:48:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Full calculations in thread. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5l3tpjWIAA2sAi?format=png&name=large This makes me believe the Ukrainian daily total numbers are accurate, because the source for the Officers confirmed dead mentions that even their numbers are under reported. Do the Wagner casualties even include the prisoners? Add more DPR/LNR, naval and air casualties, and go with the higher range of his estimates and the numbers are maybe only a few tens of thousands lower at most. I think UA fatality estimates could be somewhat exaggerated, but are probably not terribly far off, either. I do think that the ratio of senior officers killed to junior officers and enlisted men killed is higher than for the U.S. in Vietnam, which may lower the overall estimates. There are also FSB and other units outside of the Army and Naval Infantry that may also be needed to be taken into consideration, foreign contractors of which Russia has utilized some IIRC, and also Chechen, Cossack, and other such more local military units not formally part of the Russian Army. I'm not sure to what extent he might account for these. I know leaked documents from a while back before the estimates hit 100k showed that internally acknowledged strictly Russian military casualties were very close to the Ukrainian estimates being given at the time. I'm not sure if anything like that has been leaked more recently or not. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:50:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity as its organized religion. In the WWI time perid they made some bad decisions, buying in to Wilson's 14 points, and a milion Plus Christians were genocided by Turks in 1915 or so. A large number of refugees went to Lebanon, France, US, Armenian SSR. The Armenians in the USSR were generally loyal to the Communists and in return, safe from the Western-Islam Clash of Civilizations fault line: think Spain, Serbia/Kosovo, Israel. War began over N-K and refugees when the USSR fell apart. In light of US policies in the mideast, the West doesnt want to back them. The Azerbajainis have lots of gas and money. Turks support Azeris. The big question mark is the Israelis, who sold a lot of high end UAVs to the Azeris who smashed the snot out of the Armenians, and that is a bit of a precursor to the tactical innovations we see now. The Armenians are playing a bad hand as best they can, but not really adroitly. But they have few good options. To be fair, Im not certain to what degree the Azeris really did much, but the West's embracing the Turks doesnt really put the West on the moral high ground either. The locals caught between the Rus and the Turks are in between a rock and a hard place. There arent a whole lot of populations besides greater Moscow that were better off inside the USSR then without. The Orthodox Christian Caucasus states threatened by what was the Ottoman empire were the exception to that rule. Pick your poison. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: Originally Posted By RockNwood: OK, who has a read on the Armenia and Azerbaijan situation? Chatter is about Iran and Turkey and Russia who all seem to side with Azerbaijan? Q1: Is this likely to blow up or is Armenia about to be wiped out? Q2: What is Russia’s involvement? Would they let Turkey and Iran solve it or go in hot? Q3: Seems this would concern Georgia? Are they involved and if so because of Russia ir their own interest? Central Asia history and current events were never in my curriculum or radar. 😂 Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity as its organized religion. In the WWI time perid they made some bad decisions, buying in to Wilson's 14 points, and a milion Plus Christians were genocided by Turks in 1915 or so. A large number of refugees went to Lebanon, France, US, Armenian SSR. The Armenians in the USSR were generally loyal to the Communists and in return, safe from the Western-Islam Clash of Civilizations fault line: think Spain, Serbia/Kosovo, Israel. War began over N-K and refugees when the USSR fell apart. In light of US policies in the mideast, the West doesnt want to back them. The Azerbajainis have lots of gas and money. Turks support Azeris. The big question mark is the Israelis, who sold a lot of high end UAVs to the Azeris who smashed the snot out of the Armenians, and that is a bit of a precursor to the tactical innovations we see now. The Armenians are playing a bad hand as best they can, but not really adroitly. But they have few good options. To be fair, Im not certain to what degree the Azeris really did much, but the West's embracing the Turks doesnt really put the West on the moral high ground either. The locals caught between the Rus and the Turks are in between a rock and a hard place. There arent a whole lot of populations besides greater Moscow that were better off inside the USSR then without. The Orthodox Christian Caucasus states threatened by what was the Ottoman empire were the exception to that rule. Pick your poison. Great context! Thank you. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:52:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By weptek911: That was really interesting, thanks @m35ben |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 6:56:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Shit! and there were survivors. Probably like swiss cheese but they ran away somehow!!! Amazing. Look at it again, it looks like the running men were on the periphery of that long blast radius right as it goes off. I’m betting the actual crew got smoked. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:06:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Shit! and there were survivors. Probably like swiss cheese but they ran away somehow!!! Amazing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By lorazepam:
Shit! and there were survivors. Probably like swiss cheese but they ran away somehow!!! Amazing. Some were outside that main cone, but wow. 
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:09:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Milley should have been hung for treason a couple of years ago. Not even kidding. What he said about pledging to subvert the United States for China to avert a war or whatever. Outright treasonous. He literally admitted to a commitment to warn the CCP of any imminent US attack. Fucking asshole. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By LesBaer45: Anything I showed Milley that wasn't already out in the public domain would be 'fake' but maybe slightly realistic just to throw him off. Already seen some articles this afternoon about him running his yap how the Ukes only have 30 more days until they are done for the 'season'. Milley should have been hung for treason a couple of years ago. Not even kidding. What he said about pledging to subvert the United States for China to avert a war or whatever. Outright treasonous. He literally admitted to a commitment to warn the CCP of any imminent US attack. Fucking asshole. Agree  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-acting-defense-sec-miller-says-he-did-not-authorize-milley-china-calls-says-he-should-resign Contrary to Milley’s CYA claim it was approved by Miller, Miller denies he gave or ever would give such approval. Milley is a self-important traitor and a shameless liar. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:11:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: That design looks super effective. But the most effective aspect of it is: - it looks super cheap. For a vehicle specifically intended to set off detonations, cheap is exactly what you want. Cheap, easy to copy and replace, and effective. While it's intended only for anti-personnel mines, I wonder if the wheels would effectively set off the large Russian anti-tank mines? Very small profile seems like a plus too. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:14:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: I fully expect Milley to pass information to the Russians if he thinks Ukraine is winning too much. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5rj5a1WwAAmtxr?format=jpg&name=900x900 I fully expect Milley to pass information to the Russians if he thinks Ukraine is winning too much. I was just thinking the same thing 
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:15:12 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:27:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thanosnap]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PolarBear416: I went back and cut out all his long winded nonsense except the opening and closing phrases about Ukraine being an American pawn. I want to be clear I don't mind if he brings the Russian version of events on the battlefield. But this particular post was 100% political propaganda with nothing to do with the war. It just occurred to me that if you are Ukrainian, the idea of Ukraine being thought of as a pawn, Crimea being only 20% ethnic Ukrainian, or Russian exports being important to the world economy might really anger you. And there does seem to be some Ukrainians on this board. I mean, how many non-Ukrainian Americans are going onto telegram, translating posts, and reposting it here in English? But you also have to realize Ukraine is 1/2 of 1% of the world population and almost zero percent of the AR-15 style rifle using population. They've issued AK-74s up until they ran out. Ukraine wasn't even a close ally of the US until now. So, not everybody looks at it through the lense of a Ukrainian, especially in an AR community. The world as a whole is pretty much aligned against Russia now, but each country and citizen of that country has their own interests and views which may not 100% align with Ukrainian interests and views. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:31:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RockNwood]
[#25]
Hmmm…doesn’t sound like a winner…dig a spider hole? Start dressing as a woman? Seek asylum in NKorea?
The dictator is accompanied exclusively by his personal security service, and employees in the regions are entrusted only with the preparation of the territory before his arrival "They tell us that he [Putin] is there, but he may not be. He does not trust himself. People can be told that he is resting at this dacha, but he may be somewhere else altogether," said the ex-employee of the FSO Vitaly Bryzhaty The dictator's paranoia is so great that usually a whole show unfolds when he arrives in Crimea. According to the ex-employee of the FSO, three helicopters fly to each of the airports on the peninsula, the Russian Guard and motorcades arrive, and Putin himself may arrive by sea. At the same time, the coastal zone is guarded by a special unit of divers, located in the same building as dog handlers |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:42:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Putting aside his decision, and focusing on the lead up to that, he met with the Russian ambassador to the US. The ambassador said that attack would result in WW3. Did Musk leak info about an impending naval drone attack to the ambassador?. Did he share that he had been asked to turn on, extend, or keep on Starlink in Crimea for the purpose of a drone attack? Why would the ambassador make that warning statement unless he had been provided enough details to make such an assessment? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Originally Posted By Tiberius: Originally Posted By lorazepam:
I reached out to a source close to the Ukrainian drone programme about these claims. They confirmed Starlink had been previously enabled in the area in question - which is why Ukraine had used USVs that relied on Starlink for navigation - and that Musk had "turned it off".
My understanding - which I reported six months ago - is that Starlink was not only geofenced but also programmed to stop working at the kind of speeds drones work at. Ie it was active blocking. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F5qjkTsXgAA0pjt?format=jpg&name=medium Musk has revealed himself to be a security risk. At best he's a useful idiot, at worst he's in effect a traitor. Is it in the interests of the US to have this man involved in critical fields here? What if he decides our space efforts are problematic? Putting aside his decision, and focusing on the lead up to that, he met with the Russian ambassador to the US. The ambassador said that attack would result in WW3. Did Musk leak info about an impending naval drone attack to the ambassador?. Did he share that he had been asked to turn on, extend, or keep on Starlink in Crimea for the purpose of a drone attack? Why would the ambassador make that warning statement unless he had been provided enough details to make such an assessment? I'm admittedly not as cold on Musk as some here. He did put his money on the line to expose what was going on with the old twatter and that was certainly overall a great benefit to Republicans to have a more level playing field there. Obviously Carlson and others having a platform there is a downer, but that is also part of having more free speech - no conservative messaging was getting through at all before. It seems some here are also overlooking that he did contract turn it over to be used for the war as our government saw fit, apparently without the restrictions involved when the request was coming directly from Ukraine. At least that is how I understand what happened (haven't looked into it a ton). |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 7:55:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thanosnap]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sywagon: It could have been a preemptive warning because they had an idea UA was leading up to it. I'm admittedly not as cold on Musk as some here. He did put his money on the line to expose what was going on with the old twatter and that was certainly overall a great benefit to Republicans to have a more level playing field there. Obviously Carlson and others having a platform there is a downer, but that is also part of having more free speech - no conservative messaging was getting through at all before. It seems some here are also overlooking that he did contract turn it over to be used for the war as our government saw fit, apparently without the restrictions involved when the request was coming directly from Ukraine. At least that is how I understand what happened (haven't looked into it a ton). I was watching Paul from Combat Veteran Reacts, who is very pro-American, and he thinks maybe the US govt (who Starlink has a contract with) asked Musk to shut off Starlink in Crimea because Ukrainian operations in Crimea were a dangerous escalation and not helpful to American overall goals, at 7:52 here:  Leaks: Elon Musk Intervened in Ukraine Conflict! 9 Sep 23 Daily Update I mean at what point does the guy who challenged Putin to a fistfight and gave Ukraine the encrypted communications capability initially for free that allowed them to fight off Russia and still have a country, become a traitor? |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:02:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thanosnap: It just occurred to me that if you are Ukrainian, the idea of Ukraine being thought of as a pawn, Crimea being only 20% ethnic Ukrainian, or Russian exports being important to the world economy might really anger you. And there does seem to be some Ukrainians on this board. I mean, how many non-Ukrainian Americans are going onto telegram, translating posts, and reposting it here in English? But you also have to realize Ukraine is 1/2 of 1% of the world population and almost zero percent of the AR-15 style rifle using population. They issue AK-74s. Ukraine wasn't even a close ally of the US until now. So, not everybody looks at it through the lense of a Ukrainian, especially in an AR community. The world as a whole is pretty much aligned against Russia now, but each country and citizen of that country has their own interests and views which may not 100% align with Ukrainian interests and views. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thanosnap: Originally Posted By PolarBear416: I went back and cut out all his long winded nonsense except the opening and closing phrases about Ukraine being an American pawn. I want to be clear I don't mind if he brings the Russian version of events on the battlefield. But this particular post was 100% political propaganda with nothing to do with the war. It just occurred to me that if you are Ukrainian, the idea of Ukraine being thought of as a pawn, Crimea being only 20% ethnic Ukrainian, or Russian exports being important to the world economy might really anger you. And there does seem to be some Ukrainians on this board. I mean, how many non-Ukrainian Americans are going onto telegram, translating posts, and reposting it here in English? But you also have to realize Ukraine is 1/2 of 1% of the world population and almost zero percent of the AR-15 style rifle using population. They issue AK-74s. Ukraine wasn't even a close ally of the US until now. So, not everybody looks at it through the lense of a Ukrainian, especially in an AR community. The world as a whole is pretty much aligned against Russia now, but each country and citizen of that country has their own interests and views which may not 100% align with Ukrainian interests and views. "almost zero percent of the AR-15 style rifle using population" Congratulations on outing yourself. Up until now, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. This statement shows how little you have been following the actual war. Canadian DIAEMCOs, American M16 and M4 variants from many manufacturers, M16A1 variants from God-knows-where, Police and Commercial AR-15s, and various Stoner-derived rifles from many sources have become ubiquitous among the Ukrainians. Plus, various FN rifles, M14s, CEMTEs and so forth are also issued. While AK-74s are a plurality (and probably a majority) of individual weapons issued, the number of AR-series weapons present in Ukraine is not anywhere near "almost zero percent". It is almost inconceivable that Ukraine will continue the AK74 as their primary weapon in the future, as anything in the future will almost certainly be something in a STANAG caliber, and the stuff they have in STANAG calibers will probably hang around in reserve units and police use for a lot longer than the AK74. The reason I say this is that we had several pages of discussion when the M14's showed up as to when they would show up as parts kits; the consensus was more-or-less that, since they look good in parades and are a STANAG caliber, they would probably end up equipping territorial militia, military cadets, and honor guards in Ukraine for a long time before they ever show up anywhere as a parts kit. This was a pretty memorable part of the thread and occurred nearly a year ago. 
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:07:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lorazepam]
[#29]
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:09:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thanosnap]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: "almost zero percent of the AR-15 style rifle using population" Congratulations on outing yourself. Up until now, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. This statement shows how little you have been following the actual war. Canadian DIAEMCOs, American M16 and M4 variants from many manufacturers, M16A1 variants from God-knows-where, Police and Commercial AR-15s, and various Stoner-derived rifles from many sources have become ubiquitous among the Ukrainians. Plus, various FN rifles, M14s, CEMTEs and so forth are also issued. While AK-74s are a plurality (and probably a majority) of individual weapons issued, the number of AR-series weapons present in Ukraine is not anywhere near "almost zero percent". It is almost inconceivable that Ukraine will continue the AK74 as their primary weapon in the future, as anything in the future will almost certainly be something in a STANAG caliber, and the stuff they have in STANAG calibers will probably hang around in reserve units and police use for a lot longer than the AK74. The reason I say this is that we had several pages of discussion when the M14's showed up as to when they would show up as parts kits; the consensus was more-or-less that, since they look good in parades and are a STANAG caliber, they would probably end up equipping territorial militia, military cadets, and honor guards in Ukraine for a long time before they ever show up anywhere as a parts kit. This was a pretty memorable part of the thread and occurred nearly a year ago. Yes, before you even posted this I had changed it to read they issued AK-74s up until they ran out. I knew this and that's irrelevant to my point that an AR community isn't going to see this 100% through the lense of Ukrainians who traditionally use AKs. In fact in January they started production of M16s in Ukraine. And transitioning to NATO weapons will help with the NATO training of Ukrainians going on in the UK, Spain, Germany and Poland. I think NATO has trained 60k to 100k of them. But nitpicking these little points doesn't change the fact that they weren't a close ally until now and each country has their own interests which may not be 100% Ukrainian interests. And "Congratulations on outing yourself" ... STOP with that bs or the thread will get derailed, you're not a Russian sympathizer if you're a moderate American. I abhor what Russia did, but that doesn't mean I shut myself off to every valid piece of information that doesn't help a certain agenda (one that may not even be in my country's best interests.) |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:26:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam:
 SecretSqrl: …things are getting worse and worse, then they spiraled out of controlMobiks: Hold our beer! |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:38:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thanosnap: Yes, before you even posted this I had changed it to read they issued AK-74s up until they ran out. I knew this and that's irrelevant to my point that an AR community isn't going to see this 100% through the lense of Ukrainians who traditionally use AKs. In fact in January they started production of M16s in Ukraine. And transitioning to NATO weapons will help with the NATO training of Ukrainians going on in the UK, Spain, Germany and Poland. I think NATO has trained 60k to 100k of them. But nitpicking these little points doesn't change the fact that they weren't a close ally until now and each country has their own interests which may not be 100% Ukrainian interests. And "Congratulations on outing yourself" ... STOP with that bs or the thread will get derailed, you're not a Russian sympathizer if you're a moderate American. I abhor what Russia did, but that doesn't mean I shut myself off to every valid piece of information that doesn't help a certain agenda (that may not even be in my country's best interests.) This is an interesting article. https://www.kyivpost.com/post/8670 Though it IS from 2017. But it means that some of the ARs we’ve seen have been chambered in 7.62/5.45 and are home grown. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:40:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thanosnap]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: This is an interesting article. https://www.kyivpost.com/post/8670 Though it IS from 2017. But it means that some of the ARs we’ve seen have been chambered in 7.62x39 and are home grown. Ah, good point about the 2017. There's a transition going on, but this is traditionally not an AR country. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:43:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Please stop quoting thanosnap
Send him a private message or start a new thread. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:44:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thanosnap: In fact in January they started production of M16s in Ukraine. I remember reading and discussing this article a few years ago. A US company nobody ever heard of owned by Ukrainian(s?) was chosen by Ukrainian government to design and manufacture an AR variant chambered in 7.62X39 that can be easily bought complete or assembled from COTS. Seems quite plausible in a country where government corruption isn't exactly uncommon. BTW I don't think these rifles ever materialized but it wouldn't surprise me if substantial $ have been spent on this project. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:49:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: But it means that some of the ARs we’ve seen have been chambered in 7.62/5.45 and are home grown. I haven't seen a single AR that looked chambered in anything other than 5.56 or rarely 7.62 NATO. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:51:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alex9661: BTW I don't think these rifles ever materialized but it wouldn't surprise me if substantial $ have been spent on this project. THAT is a fair point |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 8:58:23 PM EDT
[#38]
ISW assessment for September 10th.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-10-2023 |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:03:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: "almost zero percent of the AR-15 style rifle using population" Congratulations on outing yourself. Up until now, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. This statement shows how little you have been following the actual war. Canadian DIAEMCOs, American M16 and M4 variants from many manufacturers, M16A1 variants from God-knows-where, Police and Commercial AR-15s, and various Stoner-derived rifles from many sources have become ubiquitous among the Ukrainians. Plus, various FN rifles, M14s, CEMTEs and so forth are also issued. While AK-74s are a plurality (and probably a majority) of individual weapons issued, the number of AR-series weapons present in Ukraine is not anywhere near "almost zero percent". It is almost inconceivable that Ukraine will continue the AK74 as their primary weapon in the future, as anything in the future will almost certainly be something in a STANAG caliber, and the stuff they have in STANAG calibers will probably hang around in reserve units and police use for a lot longer than the AK74. The reason I say this is that we had several pages of discussion when the M14's showed up as to when they would show up as parts kits; the consensus was more-or-less that, since they look good in parades and are a STANAG caliber, they would probably end up equipping territorial militia, military cadets, and honor guards in Ukraine for a long time before they ever show up anywhere as a parts kit. This was a pretty memorable part of the thread and occurred nearly a year ago. I am sitting at the edge of my keyboard waiting for Ukrainian AAR's about small arms (and grenades, tanks, etc). I think the pre-invasion UA was 99% AK variant, probably almost all 74's . Since the invasion, I'm seeing more and more AR variants from typical M4 to various M16 too. Lots of Polish and other variants also. I remember seeing new Foreign Legion guys showing off their brand new FNC's and complaining about having very few mags to go with them. I dont think any other army can claim so much hard experience with so many various small arms in such diverse and harsh conditions. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:12:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Hmmm doesn't sound like a winner dig a spider hole? Start dressing as a woman? Seek asylum in NKorea?
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:16:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: Exactly! Musk disappoints me greatly. Turns out he is just a clown with a bit of money. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 7empest: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Yeah, it's always dangerous to help a little or to go half way. You end up with EVERYONE mad at you. My best advice to Musk and Hungary. Pick a fucking side. If you cannot tell who is good and who is bad then fuck off and STFU. Exactly! Musk disappoints me greatly. Turns out he is just a clown with a bit of money. What's the alternative? Did you want him to turn all the Starlink service off or not provide it at all in the first place? |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:27:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Currently.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:29:30 PM EDT
[#43]
T-55s and D-20s...
How long you figure it will be before we see Mig 17s? 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:35:42 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:41:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryI could go for a couple dozen truckloads of that dirt. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:44:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#46]
 ?? ???????? ???????????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????? M4 - WAC-47 I’m not finding any real evidence that these were produced in large numbers. 2018 Quote HistoryNew Ukrainian M4-WAC47 rifle ‘a strong political message to Russia’ It is now up to Ukrainian soldiers to decide if the brand new M4-WAC47 assault rifle – a special descendant of the legendary American-made M16 rifle – is good enough to eventually retire their decades-old workhorse Kalashnikovs. A year after the initial announcement, the first batch of 10 new rifles is now undergoing firing trials by Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, National Guard and Border Service. Among those, one rifle was also sent to one of the army brigades deployed in the Donbas war zone for assessing its merits and flaws in actual combat, as the UkrOboronProm defense industry concern’s spokesperson Roksolana Sheyko confirmed to the Kyiv Post. Designed by the U.S.-based company Aeroscraft specifically for Ukraine, the new M4 model came into the spotlight last year for being adapted to chamber both old Soviet-era ammo, still extensively used by all Ukrainian troops, and the munitions that are universal for NATO, the standards of which Ukraine seeks to adopt by 2020. https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6837 Quote HistoryNew Ukrainian M4-WAC47 rifle ‘a strong political message to Russia’ It is now up to Ukrainian soldiers to decide if the brand new M4-WAC47 assault rifle – a special descendant of the legendary American-made M16 rifle – is good enough to eventually retire their decades-old workhorse Kalashnikovs. A year after the initial announcement, the first batch of 10 new rifles is now undergoing firing trials by Ukraine’s Special Operations Forces, National Guard and Border Service. Among those, one rifle was also sent to one of the army brigades deployed in the Donbas war zone for assessing its merits and flaws in actual combat, as the UkrOboronProm defense industry concern’s spokesperson Roksolana Sheyko confirmed to the Kyiv Post. Designed by the U.S.-based company Aeroscraft specifically for Ukraine, the new M4 model came into the spotlight last year for being adapted to chamber both old Soviet-era ammo, still extensively used by all Ukrainian troops, and the munitions that are universal for NATO, the standards of which Ukraine seeks to adopt by 2020. https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6837 Video from 2018ish-  ????????? ???????? M4 WAC 47 ????????? ?????????? , ???? 224 , ???? , ???? , ?????? 2019 In a New Year’s statement on Jan. 3, 2018, Ukraine’s central state arms company, UkrOboronProm, or UOP, announced it had delivered the initial batch of WAC-47s to unspecified units by way of American firm Aeroscraft. Ukrainian officials first revealed plans to purchase the rifles in January 2017 and the country expects to eventually issue the guns across both its active and reserve military units and to personnel in other state security services. It would be an important upgrade for these organizations, which use dated variants of the legendary Kalashnikov AKM pattern as their primary service rifles at present. … Ukraine and Russia have been embroiled in a serious conflict since 2014, when the Kremlin seized the Crimea region and began actively supporting separatists seeking to break away from the government in Kiev. This all followed a popular political uprising that ousted Ukraine’s previous Pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych. Though the two countries are not openly at war, by all accounts Russian troops have been actively engaged in fighting with Ukrainian troops on Ukrainian soil as part of a complex, hybrid war. “For our country and the Ukrainian army, M16 production in Ukraine is a real step towards Euro-Atlantic structures,” UOP said in the October 2017 statement. “Every country that has teared [sic] itself away from Russia’s orbit, went or is going through this difficult stage, [is] taking many years and demanding great effort.” Underscoring these statements is UOP’s partnership with Aeroscraft, a division of Worldwide Aeros Corporation. The firm’s main business is lighter-than-air craft, such as blimps and tethered aerostats. Igor Pasternak, who grew up in Soviet Kazakhstan, first founded Aeros Limited in Soviet Ukraine in 1986, becoming one of the Soviet Union’s first private engineering firms to appear under Premier Mikhail Gorbachev’s Perestroika reforms, according to his company's website. Pasternak subsequently immigrated to the United States in 1993 and has steadily become an outspoken critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin and his policies, especially with regards to Ukraine. In 2016, Worldwide Aeroscraft signed a separate deal with the Ukrainian border guard to supply unspecified surveillance equipment. At the time, Pasternak said this contract was part of the U.S. government’s larger program to provide non-lethal military aid to Ukraine. In December 2017, President Donald Trump’s administration approved a commercial license for the sale of Barrett M107A1 .50 caliber sniper rifles to Ukraine, which seemed to indicate a departure from the policies of President Barack Obama. It's not clear if this was necessarily the case, though. That month there was a separate report that Texas-based AirTronic USA had quietly secured similar approval for the delivery of a number of its Precision Shoulder-fired Rocket Launchers, or PSRL, an upgraded version of the Soviet RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade launcher, to Ukraine in 2016. If Aeroscraft has actually produced any version of WAC-47 in the United States it would have needed a similar waiver to actually deliver them to Ukrainian troops. Though Trump has often called for better relations with Russia, there is no indication he would’ve necessarily been inclined to block this particular sale or any future ones. The administration has gone back and forth in its tone toward the Kremlin, sometimes criticizing its involvement in conflicts in Ukraine and Syria, its potential support for insurgents in Afghanistan, its intransigence over North Korea, and its aggressive foreign policy. In December 2017, there were reports that Trump was considering a larger lethal arms package for Ukrainian forces that would notably include Javelin anti-tank missiles to help counter Russian armored units in the country. If nothing else, the guns will be an important upgrade over the older AKM types. One can see the M4-WAC-47s as a larger metaphor for shifting American policies toward the conflict in Ukraine and the Ukrainian government’s own desire to develop even closer ties to the United States and Western Europe. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17797/ukraines-new-ak-m16-mashup-rifle-is-symbolic-of-the-countrys-morphing-strategic-reality |
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USA
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:44:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Veccio: This whole 'Musk needs to pick a side', 'Starlink and SpaceX need to be nationalized' back and forth is asinine. Musk/Starlink got terminals and service setup there faster than anybody else could and provided internet service capability that no other company on the planet could have. For a considerable amount of time Starlink wasn't even being paid for the service for many of those terminals. Without the internet backbone he/his company provided Ukraine might not even exist, yet he gets shit on because he had a limit on how much risk/loss he was willing to let his company take on. What's the alternative? Did you want him to turn all the Starlink service off or not provide it at all in the first place? 100% agree with this. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:48:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thanosnap]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Veccio: This whole 'Musk needs to pick a side', 'Starlink and SpaceX need to be nationalized' back and forth is asinine. Musk/Starlink got terminals and service setup there faster than anybody else could and provided internet service capability that no other company on the planet could have. For a considerable amount of time Starlink wasn't even being paid for the service for many of those terminals. Without the internet backbone he/his company provided Ukraine might not even exist, yet he gets shit on because he had a limit on how much risk/loss he was willing to let his company take on. What's the alternative? Did you want him to turn all the Starlink service off or not provide it at all in the first place? Well the "Elon Musk committed evil" narrative is the one coming out of Kiev right now:
And I get it, Russia's trying to destroy their country so they want to destroy Russia, but America isn't Kiev and Musk isn't Ukrainian. |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:49:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thanosnap: Well the "Elon Musk committed evil" narrative is the one coming out of Kiev right now:
And I get it, Russia's trying to destroy their country so they want to destroy Russia, but America isn't Kiev and Musk isn't Ukrainian. Why do you use the Russian way of spelling for Kyiv? |
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Posted: 9/10/2023 9:50:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Thanks to all for the Nagorno-Karabakh background. This was especially helpful. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By CharlieR: Armenia was the first nation to adopt Christianity as its organized religion. In the WWI time perid they made some bad decisions, buying in to Wilson's 14 points, and a milion Plus Christians were genocided by Turks in 1915 or so. A large number of refugees went to Lebanon, France, US, Armenian SSR. The Armenians in the USSR were generally loyal to the Communists and in return, safe from the Western-Islam Clash of Civilizations fault line: think Spain, Serbia/Kosovo, Israel. War began over N-K and refugees when the USSR fell apart. In light of US policies in the mideast, the West doesnt want to back them. The Azerbajainis have lots of gas and money. Turks support Azeris. The big question mark is the Israelis, who sold a lot of high end UAVs to the Azeris who smashed the snot out of the Armenians, and that is a bit of a precursor to the tactical innovations we see now. The Armenians are playing a bad hand as best they can, but not really adroitly. But they have few good options. To be fair, Im not certain to what degree the Azeris really did much, but the West's embracing the Turks doesnt really put the West on the moral high ground either. The locals caught between the Rus and the Turks are in between a rock and a hard place. There arent a whole lot of populations besides greater Moscow that were better off inside the USSR then without. The Orthodox Christian Caucasus states threatened by what was the Ottoman empire were the exception to that rule. Pick your poison. Thanks to all for the Nagorno-Karabakh background. This was especially helpful. Basically the only time that region hasn't known war in the last 1500 years is when they were under the Soviet thumb. |
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