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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:14:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doorbell camera. Observe armed men on porch. Press 'SOS' button on phone. Arfcops have told me that cameras must be disabled, in the name of officer safety.  Cops Destroy Ring Doorbell at Wrong House  Cops Caught Disabling or Covering Surveillance Cameras | Is that Legal? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:16:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Arfcops have told me that cameras must be disabled, in the name of officer safety.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqmjQ8-38c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KpsahwQtX8Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Doorbell camera. Observe armed men on porch. Press 'SOS' button on phone. Arfcops have told me that cameras must be disabled, in the name of officer safety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zqmjQ8-38c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KpsahwQtX8 Attached File |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:23:21 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:23:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'd bet wrong. In betting based on NY that you're a liberal scum that thinks guns are bad. See how that works? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’m betting you’re a cop and big mad that “civilians” can own firearms. You belong in a cell. You'd bet wrong. In betting based on NY that you're a liberal scum that thinks guns are bad. See how that works? Tigglesworth has not defended cops who shot an innocent man, in his own house, because they were to incompetent to know they were at the wrong address. You have. See the difference? I do. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:23:32 AM EDT
[#5]
I just watched the Chief of Police giving a statement / media release.
Bodycam to be released in next week or so. Will be interesting to see if - Was the house in darkness when offficers arrive ? Did they identify themselves while knocking ? The lighting conditions outside the front door. The behaviour and body language of the homeowner when he opened the door. Was he holding the gun pointing down or was he pointing at the officer ? Were any warnings shouted before shots were fired. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:24:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't need permission to knock on someone's door. There have been a couple things you've said in this thread that are entirely correct. This is one of them. In the absence of a warrant or exigent circumstances, the police have the same rights as a girl scout selling cookies, and approaching, knocking, and talking is included in that, at least until given a trespass order. OTOH, I don't need permission to stand inside my own home while possessing a firearm. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:25:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'd bet wrong. In betting based on NY that you're a liberal scum that thinks guns are bad. See how that works? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’m betting you’re a cop and big mad that “civilians” can own firearms. You belong in a cell. You'd bet wrong. In betting based on NY that you're a liberal scum that thinks guns are bad. See how that works? Aren’t you in NY? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:26:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never answer the door. They would have simply kicked the door in and accomplished the same result. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:28:36 AM EDT
[#9]
We've allowed this process to go on without any real consequences for getting it wrong.
"Wrong house" shootings are unfortunately, a thing. You get what you tolerate. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:28:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tigglesworth has not defended cops who shot an innocent man, in his own house, because they were to incompetent to know they were at the wrong address. You have. See the difference? I do. I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:29:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If possible you can verify it is the popo, uniforms, marked car in street etc. If you don’t have visibility and are concerned about a home invasion by people claiming to be police you can call 911 to verify and maybe get some info as to why they are there and provide feedback like they are at the wrong house. While answering the door with a gun may be gut instinct, it not only puts you at risk in situations like this but puts you at a disadvantage if something really was going down. If that was the case you shouldn’t be opening the door to begin with. I can’t think of a scenario where it is the right call, at least not with it displayed. Once again, if you feel the need to do that, you shouldn’t be opening the door. You don’t have to open the door. I can’t think of a scenario where I am opening the door. If it’s so important they can call me. If he hadn't answered the door, would the police have broken the door down to get in? Yes, that is a question, I'm not saying they would have. The innocent homeowner was in a no-win-situation because of the cops being at the wrong address. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:29:56 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren’t you in NY? I was making a point about generalizing. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:31:58 AM EDT
[#13]
Call me when officer shoot first goes to jail
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:33:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Tigglesworth has not defended cops who shot an innocent man, in his own house, because they were to incompetent to know they were at the wrong address. You have. See the difference? I do. I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? You are assuming that the police identified themselves, that BOTH occupants heard the identification and still opened the door BOTH armed ? What is more likely ? Occupants knew police were at door and armed themselves regardless. Occupants did not know identity of those at door ? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:34:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If he hadn't answered the door, would the police have broken the door down to get in? outside of some kind of exigent circumstance; no. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:35:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? What would have happened at the correct address has no bearing on this shooting. The cops started the situation by not 100% verifying they were at the correct address. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:36:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Tigglesworth has not defended cops who shot an innocent man, in his own house, because they were to incompetent to know they were at the wrong address. You have. See the difference? I do. I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? Fuck yes it's wrong. You are on their property. Assume they're armed. You don't get to kill them unless the explicitly threaten you. Period. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:37:22 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cop was reckless, or stupid. Either one cost a man his life. There is only four digits in the address and he fucked it up. Send him to the pokey and let him explain what a badass cop he was to his cellie. I hope the other inmates enjoy his tbl stories. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the officer can show that he had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, that he wasn't the initial aggressor, that he was not acting recklessly, etc, then it is neither. Cop was reckless, or stupid. Either one cost a man his life. There is only four digits in the address and he fucked it up. Send him to the pokey and let him explain what a badass cop he was to his cellie. I hope the other inmates enjoy his tbl stories. That's not reckless. That's knocking on the wrong door. The police have a legal reason to be there - to conduct an investigation. It's not a search. It's not trespassing. It's someone knocking on your front door - your interface with the public. Someone who has a legal reason to be where he is, is not the initial aggressor, is, in most states, afforded the use of deadly force if he has a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm. The officer and officers may make this claim. In general, the officer would be, at a minimum, a licensee. Same as some kid looking for a lost dog, an adult looking for a missing child, someone looking for a missing spouse - all of these people can be at the wrong house, but, nonetheless, have a legal reason to be at the house they are at. They are afforded protections and defenses against assault and threat of assault. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:37:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong? If??? He's dead, Jim. Your hero killed him for the heinous crime of opening his door with a gun after hours. Let me reiterate, there is no crime so small they won't kill you over. Even non-crimes. Also, There is no murdering, thieving, lying cop that the tbl crowd won't try and cover for. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:37:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven't defended them showing up to the wrong address either. That's wrong as hell and I've looked at the Google maps street view and I have no idea how they even screwed that up. That being said, it's also retarded to answer the door with a gun in your hand when the cops are pounding on the door. If the cops had responded to the correct address and the exact set of circumstances played out, still wrong?  If you have done nothing wrong, why would anyone, let along the cops, be pounding on your door at 11:30? That is where your scenario falls apart. Remember (again), no one originally answered the door. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:37:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: outside of some kind of exigent circumstance; no. How can you be sure of that when they were too incompetent to even be sure they were at the correct house? I'm not asking in general, but about these particular cops. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:38:59 AM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:40:51 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not reckless. That's knocking on the wrong door. The police have a legal reason to be there - to conduct an investigation. It's not a search. It's not trespassing. It's someone knocking on your front door - your interface with the public. Someone who has a legal reason to be where he is, is not the initial aggressor, is, in most states, afforded the use of deadly force if he has a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm. The officer and officers may make this claim. In general, the officer would be, at a minimum, a licensee. Same as some kid looking for a lost dog, an adult looking for a missing child, someone looking for a missing spouse - all of these people can be at the wrong house, but, nonetheless, have a legal reason to be at the house they are at. They are afforded protections and defenses against assault and threat of assault. This is all horseshit. He had ZERO reason to be there. None. Your boy fucked up and murdered a man. I hope his remaining days are painful. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:41:49 AM EDT
[#24]
Hopefully not a thread derail.....
The wife seems to have gotten to the door second and having seen her husband getting shot, fired on police then according to the police press release she "surrendered when she REALISED they were police" So, it sounds like, before reaching the door and before shooting, wife did not know police were at the door ? If she had gotten lucky and hit one or both of the officers, how would that have played out ? Justified self defense shooting ? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:42:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If he hadn't answered the door, would the police have broken the door down to get in? Yes, that is a question, I'm not saying they would have. The innocent homeowner was in a no-win-situation because of the cops being at the wrong address. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If possible you can verify it is the popo, uniforms, marked car in street etc. If you don’t have visibility and are concerned about a home invasion by people claiming to be police you can call 911 to verify and maybe get some info as to why they are there and provide feedback like they are at the wrong house. While answering the door with a gun may be gut instinct, it not only puts you at risk in situations like this but puts you at a disadvantage if something really was going down. If that was the case you shouldn’t be opening the door to begin with. I can’t think of a scenario where it is the right call, at least not with it displayed. Once again, if you feel the need to do that, you shouldn’t be opening the door. You don’t have to open the door. I can’t think of a scenario where I am opening the door. If it’s so important they can call me. If he hadn't answered the door, would the police have broken the door down to get in? Yes, that is a question, I'm not saying they would have. The innocent homeowner was in a no-win-situation because of the cops being at the wrong address. The police requested dispatch tell the caller to come to the door. It is likely what would have happened was the caller would have gone to the door, told dispatch they were at the door, dispatch would tell the cops, who would realize something was wrong, check the address and get to the right house. How quick would police be to kick in a door over a similar call? I don’t know, it would probably depend on a million things. But I don’t think kicking in a locked door would happen all that quickly. Even if it had, the homeowner would be at a tactical advantage assuming they had a plan for someone kicking in their door and would have had the drop on anyone coming in as opposed to opening an exterior door blindly. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:43:38 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not reckless. That's knocking on the wrong door. The police have a legal reason to be there - to conduct an investigation. It's not a search. It's not trespassing. It's someone knocking on your front door - your interface with the public. Someone who has a legal reason to be where he is, is not the initial aggressor, is, in most states, afforded the use of deadly force if he has a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm. The officer and officers may make this claim. In general, the officer would be, at a minimum, a licensee. Same as some kid looking for a lost dog, an adult looking for a missing child, someone looking for a missing spouse - all of these people can be at the wrong house, but, nonetheless, have a legal reason to be at the house they are at. They are afforded protections and defenses against assault and threat of assault. Take the police part out of it. If some stranger knocks on my door at 11:30 at night looking for their lost spouse, and I show up armed to answer, can they legally shoot me? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:45:01 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not reckless. That's knocking on the wrong door. The police have a legal reason to be there - to conduct an investigation. It's not a search. It's not trespassing. It's someone knocking on your front door - your interface with the public. Someone who has a legal reason to be where he is, is not the initial aggressor, is, in most states, afforded the use of deadly force if he has a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm. The officer and officers may make this claim. In general, the officer would be, at a minimum, a licensee. Same as some kid looking for a lost dog, an adult looking for a missing child, someone looking for a missing spouse - all of these people can be at the wrong house, but, nonetheless, have a legal reason to be at the house they are at. They are afforded protections and defenses against assault and threat of assault. Not one of those examples you listed would have had a gun in hand ready to shoot the homeowner answering the door. If they did have a gun in hand ready to shoot the person answering the door then the situation would be different, and they would be the initial aggressor(s). In this case the cops who were at the wrong house did have guns, which would make them the initial aggressors. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:45:09 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh he had permission and authority to be there? Nope. Murder. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Murder. Manslaughter at a minimum. If the officer can show that he had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, that he wasn't the initial aggressor, that he was not acting recklessly, etc, then it is neither. Oh he had permission and authority to be there? Nope. Murder. Yes. In every state I can think of, he would be a licensee - he has a legal reason to be there. I can't think of a state where that's not the case. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:46:38 AM EDT
[#29]
I wonder if the cops yelled "This is not an assault."
It worked in Waco. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:46:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Take the police part out of it. If some stranger knocks on my door at 11:30 at night looking for their lost spouse, and I show up armed to answer, can they legally shoot me? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's not reckless. That's knocking on the wrong door. The police have a legal reason to be there - to conduct an investigation. It's not a search. It's not trespassing. It's someone knocking on your front door - your interface with the public. Someone who has a legal reason to be where he is, is not the initial aggressor, is, in most states, afforded the use of deadly force if he has a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm. The officer and officers may make this claim. In general, the officer would be, at a minimum, a licensee. Same as some kid looking for a lost dog, an adult looking for a missing child, someone looking for a missing spouse - all of these people can be at the wrong house, but, nonetheless, have a legal reason to be at the house they are at. They are afforded protections and defenses against assault and threat of assault. Take the police part out of it. If some stranger knocks on my door at 11:30 at night looking for their lost spouse, and I show up armed to answer, can they legally shoot me?  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:47:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How can you be sure of that when they were too incompetent to even be sure they were at the correct house? I'm not asking in general, but about these particular cops. because theres no reason to force entry outside exigency |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:47:14 AM EDT
[#32]
If my on the job negligence resulted in the death of person, I would expect to be fired.
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:47:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not reckless. That's knocking on the wrong door. The police have a legal reason to be there - to conduct an investigation. It's not a search. It's not trespassing. It's someone knocking on your front door - your interface with the public. Someone who has a legal reason to be where he is, is not the initial aggressor, is, in most states, afforded the use of deadly force if he has a reasonable belief of serious bodily harm. The officer and officers may make this claim. In general, the officer would be, at a minimum, a licensee. Same as some kid looking for a lost dog, an adult looking for a missing child, someone looking for a missing spouse - all of these people can be at the wrong house, but, nonetheless, have a legal reason to be at the house they are at. They are afforded protections and defenses against assault and threat of assault. How fucking convenient. How do you think the people feel about this lack of accountability. Do you think the citizenry are ok with it? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:49:54 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. In every state I can think of, he would be a licensee - he has a legal reason to be there. I can't think of a state where that's not the case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Murder. Manslaughter at a minimum. If the officer can show that he had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, that he wasn't the initial aggressor, that he was not acting recklessly, etc, then it is neither. Oh he had permission and authority to be there? Nope. Murder. Yes. In every state I can think of, he would be a licensee - he has a legal reason to be there. I can't think of a state where that's not the case.  Aaron Dean trial: Former Fort Worth police officer sentenced to 11 years, 12 months, 10 days in pris |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:57:09 AM EDT
[#35]
Slight topic slide, but this situation brings up an interesting point.
If you are going to investigate a disturbance at night (answering the door in this case), is it better to do it with a handgun, or a long gun with a sling? The gun I can get to the quickest is my CCW, and if I was going to answer a door, it would be in my hand (lowered, maybe hidden a bit)...but no matter what, it would be in my hand. Assuming you are in your tighty-whities when you answer the door, and you don't prison carry, what else would you do with your handgun? Would a slung rifle/SBR/pistol work better? Especially if you have one hand on the weapon, but not on the grip? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:01:45 AM EDT
[#36]
mighty fine police work
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:02:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Am I in before the badge bunnies who insist a man has no right to answer his door at night with his pistol at hand?
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:02:35 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because I am in my home on my property. Are you suggesting that is wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Answering the front door with a visible firearm is just a bad idea. Why are we doing this? Because I am in my home on my property. Are you suggesting that is wrong? The key word is visible. If it's visible, you've lost the advantage and are inviting all sorts of problems. Problems that, while you can be morally right, still might leave you dead. Why give your prowlers any advantage? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:02:56 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Am I in before the badge bunnies who insist a man has no right to answer his door at night with his pistol at hand? You're pages too late for that. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:02:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Am I in before the badge bunnies who insist a man has no right to answer his door at night with his pistol at hand? No |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:03:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Oh look, more 2022 account drama llamas.
NorCal is sorely missed.  |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:04:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The key word is visible. If it's visible, you've lost the advantage and are inviting all sorts of problems. Problems that, while you can be morally right, still leave you dead. Why give your prowlers any advantage? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Answering the front door with a visible firearm is just a bad idea. Why are we doing this? Because I am in my home on my property. Are you suggesting that is wrong? The key word is visible. If it's visible, you've lost the advantage and are inviting all sorts of problems. Problems that, while you can be morally right, still leave you dead. Why give your prowlers any advantage? I have dogs. I have no fear of prowlers. If I ever get shot at home it will be because of something like this. (it wouldn't happen here) |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:04:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh look, more 2022 account drama llamas. NorCal is sorely missed. So good shoot right? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:06:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And they have qualified immunity, so no problem. Nothing to see here. Quote HistoryQuoted: The Farmington police officers were not injured. They screwed up by going to the wrong house. That said anyone is free to knock on your door anytime of day or night. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:07:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So good shoot right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh look, more 2022 account drama llamas. NorCal is sorely missed. So good shoot right? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:07:10 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Call me when officer shoot first goes to jail Philip Brailsford didn't go to jail, he got early retirement with sweet disability bonus because he gave himself PTSD by murdering somebody in cold blood. Justin Rapp didn't go to jail, he got promoted. Possibly by people trying to make him look good in the civil case against him. Jonathon Aledda almost went to jail. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:07:33 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not even a little bit. 
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:08:14 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Am I in before the badge bunnies who insist a man has no right to answer his door at night with his pistol at hand? Lol not even close |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:08:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Besides - he started it by opening the door armed. Who wouldn't be ready to shoot an unknown armed man at 11:30pm?" Hell of a situation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Farmington police to the victims wife: "We killed your husband but just so there's no hard feelings we won't be charging you with a crime tonight." "Besides - he started it by opening the door armed. Who wouldn't be ready to shoot an unknown armed man at 11:30pm?" Hell of a situation. More details needed Opened the door wearing a holstered handgun? Opened the door holding a handgun at the low ready? Opened the door pointing the handgun at the officers? |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 11:09:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Slight topic slide, but this situation brings up an interesting point. If you are going to investigate a disturbance at night (answering the door in this case), is it better to do it with a handgun, or a long gun with a sling? The gun I can get to the quickest is my CCW, and if I was going to answer a door, it would be in my hand (lowered, maybe hidden a bit)...but no matter what, it would be in my hand. Assuming you are in your tighty-whities when you answer the door, and you don't prison carry, what else would you do with your handgun? Would a slung rifle/SBR/pistol work better? Especially if you have one hand on the weapon, but not on the grip? I grab a rifle *usually.* But I live on a couple acres, and if someone is sitting at my main gate, can hop a fence or two and come from an unlit, unexpected direction. Hope the cops never sleeps well again, and get reamed by the legal system. No excuse for wrong house numbers, and immediately blasting someone for having a gun. That is NOT illegal, and I fully believe that if the homeowner had done anything even remotely threatening, they would have lead with that. So at this point in time, I have to say, the benefit of the doubt is being kicked away by the very government agents that have been benefiting from said benefit of the doubt. If I see the same house on Google streetview, they had to walk right past the house numbers on the garage at about head height. Unacceptable. |
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