Scottsdale mother pushes for stricter gun rental process after son’s suicide - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Scottsdale mother pushes for stricter gun rental process after son’s suicide (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 7/8/2023 1:54:49 PM EDT

[#1]

he was a selfish POS to do that to those people

Posted: 7/8/2023 1:57:26 PM EDT

[#2]

It there was no gun rental available, he would have done it another way. The gun rental is not the problem.

Posted: 7/8/2023 1:59:43 PM EDT

[#3]

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Why not just take fentanyl, it’s evidently easy to obtain, there’s little mess, and it’s just as deadly as accuse lead poisoning. On second thought, maybe we should outlaw fentanyl….oh wait, NVM.

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That's gold right there.

Posted: 7/8/2023 1:59:53 PM EDT

[#4]

Terrible situation. I've been to and have purchased firearms where this happened. More regulation would not have stopped it from happening.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:02:16 PM EDT

[#5]

Sorry about your son lady but if were going to place blame it's more likely your fault than the gun rental place.

Perhaps you should have had a background check and genetic testing before being allowed to reproduce. For, you know, "SAFETY". After all it's for the children. She should be all for that.

And.....

She 'felt' a NICS check would have stopped him. Not unless he had been involuntarily committed or answered a question wrong.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:02:46 PM EDT

[#6]

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Wait until she learns how easy it is to get rope.

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I know two guys who used a rope. One hung himself from the garage door opener when the wife took the kids to her mothers house on Christmas Eve, he wasn’t invited. When she returned Christmas morning she found him a swinging. The second guy hung himself below the backyard deck. The house was on the side of the hill. They found him when he started to stink.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:03:34 PM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
so, make it more difficult for EVERYONE else bc your son offed himself?

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... instead of investigating self and others for son's permanent solution.

Typical.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:03:53 PM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
After three on range suicides my old shop will no longer rent guns to anyone who comes solo and who doesn’t have their own gun as well.

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I worked at a range part time to help out the owner, back when I was in WA. They had a same policy.

Came alone, had to bring your own gun to be able to rent guns. Unless you were a member and had shown you own your own gun, could rent whatever you wanted solo then.

Otherwise, only permitted non gun owner people to rent when they had additional people with them. It helped deter a few but some just brought a friend along to off themselves in front of.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:04:56 PM EDT

[#9]

If I was in the business of renting guns to people, I wouldn't rent to anyone who didn't already have a firearm in their possession, or came in alone.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:05:35 PM EDT

[#10]

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Quoted:
It there was no gun rental available, he would have done it another way. The gun rental is not the problem.

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Well clearly we need tests and .gov checks before driving alone near bridge abutments.

Or purchasing rope, string, or bedsheets that might allow people to self-Epstein.

Or sharp objects.

Or.........

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:07:15 PM EDT

[#11]

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Quoted:
It helped deter a few but some just brought a friend along to off themselves in front of.

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That's a rotten thing to do.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:10:16 PM EDT

[#12]

It's sad how the grief is almost always misplaced.

A guy my wife dated in high-school killed himself and his mom became a mouth piece for moms demand action.

He stole his current gf's gun and she found it, took it from him and left his apartment. He followed her and when she stopped for gas smashed her windows and stole it back, she confronted him and he told her by the time the cops got there it won't matter. She of course called the police and sped after him. He went back home and immediately shot himself. All over a breakup.

Somehow this is the gunstores fault to his mother and she has slandered them to no end. In fact she completely lies to everyone who will listen now.

But in the immediate aftermath she had lunch with my wife and spilled the beans on what actually happened.

She forgets that she kicked him out at 15 and ignored his severe depression. Hell she ignored the other kids she had until this one offed himself.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:15:42 PM EDT

[#13]

Mental health likely means on drugs of some kind.
Sad but not much you can do about it. At least not without more infringements on your rights.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:19:56 PM EDT

[#14]

Cool. Put "Lunatic", "Violent Felon on Parole", "democrat", or "Illegal Alien" on their ID's, make it a felony to alter or conceal it, and do away with the entire background check system. Easy peasy. That'll be $10K consulting fee.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:23:28 PM EDT

[#15]

Some ranges already have policies in
Place. They won’t rent you a gun if you are a solo shooter who did not come to shoot with your own gun.

If a non owner shows up they have to come with another person so if two show up to shoot they rent you a gun.

It’s been years since I rented a gun at a range but back then I had my own gun just wanted to try out different 45s. Soon after someone took their own life at the range and they changed policy on solo renters with no firearms. This was like 1996 or so I think.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:28:56 PM EDT

[#16]

Fuck you and your dead fucking kid.

Sick of people like this.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:29:55 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
When I was a younger guy, I worked at an indoor gun range that did rentals.

We had a guy that called, asked a salesman "What's a good enough gun to kill someone with one shot?"

People have bad phrasing/are stupid, so salesman answered something along the lines of "I think you are meaning to ask 'what a good defensive caliber is'? The .45acp has a historical reputation as having a single-shot stopping capability, but it's always about shot placement, etc..."

Later that afternoon, a dude comes in to our range, asks to rent a .45acp and doesn't know denominations ammo is sold in. Just needs "some". Doesn't seem to care what model or brand.
THANKFULLY, same salesman is still on-shift, overhears guy, recognizes voice from phone. Comes over and sees something is off. Says "I'm not comfortable renting you a gun today, sir."

Dude starts bawling in the middle of the store, yells "If you're not going to help me, I'll go somewhere that will!" and storms out.

We get on all phones and call every competing range in a 20 mile radius giving them heads up, as well as call local police. They eventually find guy in parking lot of another range, interview, def suicidal. Never heard how his life turned out, but many ranges in the area (one of which had multiple suicides) after that incident instituted "No rentals to people that come in alone."

Pretty simple and effective and requires no laws or government intrusion:

* If you've already got a gun, but no friends, you're not going to rent a lane to kill yourself, you'll do it at home.

* If you've already got a freind, but no gun, you're not going to bring a buddy to kill yourself -- he's hopefully going to be a tempering influence. ("unless two people, two people do it, in harmony..." - Alice's Restaurant)

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Seems like requiring a CCW card, or having your own firearm would improve the odds a bit. I used to go to ranges alone all the time, and occasionally rented to try something out before buying. It would have been pretty annoying to have to bring a buddy for something I most often would do on my lunch hour.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:32:13 PM EDT

[#18]

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Quoted:
Pretty simple and effective and requires no laws or government intrusion:

* If you've already got a gun, but no friends, you're not going to rent a lane to kill yourself, you'll do it at home.

* If you've already got a freind, but no gun, you're not going to bring a buddy to kill yourself -- he's hopefully going to be a tempering influence. ("unless two people, two people do it, in harmony..." - Alice's Restaurant)

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Yep. Same policy at my local range. No rentals unless you meet at least one of the following.

1) Be known (having bought there before)
2) Bring your own.
3) Bring a friend.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:35:45 PM EDT

[#19]

She says it should be more like buying a gun. I'm wondering what, if any, disqualifiers her son had that would've netted a denial on a 4473/nics check. I'm betting aside from him answering questions truthfully (such that he'd get a proceed), there weren't any factors that would've resulted in a denial. Unless she didn't want to posthumously expose the fact he was a felon or under a protection order, which I sort of doubt. All theorizing on my part obviously, but just thinking out loud.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:37:03 PM EDT

[#20]

There should be background checks for parenthood. Maybe maybe maybe if it could save just one life she was a failure as a parent and this wouldn't have happened? Didn't give him enough attention, didn't let him play with barbie dolls etc....see where this goes?

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:38:26 PM EDT

[#21]

No business can compel NICS to do a check outside its legal scope. The State of New Mexico tried this for private transfers with a ballot inititive and the Feds said no.

I've always been of the opinion that range operators and their employee should sue the estates of suicides for the mental anguis, clean-up and legal costs, and loss of business. Suicide is often a very aggressive act.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:38:58 PM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
There was a rash of people doing that in my area about 20 years ago. All of the ranges voluntarily adopted rules like not renting to a first-time customer who shows up alone and unarmed, not renting to anyone who appears to be intoxicated or disoriented or distraught, etc. I wouldn't want to have to clean up after a suicide in a shooting range that I owned or managed.

Insurance companies and lawyers can get restrictions imposed a lot faster than government can.

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I cleaned one up at a range. It wasn't that bad. A thin layer of carpet on a concrete pad is a lot easier to clean up than a thick carpet on a wooden floor as would be in a house. It was one of the ranges I used. It was a long time ago, I don't think I even billed them. Probably just traded labor for ammo.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:41:47 PM EDT

[#23]

She's blaming the gun when she should be blaming herself for raising him badly.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:43:47 PM EDT

[#24]

Wouldn’t help. One of the part owners of that store died a couple years ago after shooting himself (after missing while shooting at his wife) during an argument. Although there were also some suspicious circumstances with that, like the fact she called her mom before calling 911

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:45:54 PM EDT

[#25]

Why don’t we just ban her since she is way more responsible than an inanimate object.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:46:52 PM EDT

[#26]

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Quoted:
yep. Common idiot leftist thought process. Punish everyone for one persons misdeeds.
I call it the kindergarten thought process. In Kindergarten if little Johnny did something wrong, the whole class had to get a lesson. Fucking ridiculous.

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"They're paying for it. You eat it!"

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:48:09 PM EDT

[#27]

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Quoted:

No more Grand Canyon visits. Shut it down.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Guess it's a good thing he didn't drive himself to the Grand Canyon and jump over the edge.

No more Grand Canyon visits. Shut it down.

Fill it in.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:48:43 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
She's blaming the gun when she should be blaming herself for raising him badly.

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So mental illness is always the parent's fault?

Good to know.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:55:19 PM EDT

[#29]

Many people, when they finally decide to commit suicide, act anything but depressed or suicidal, the thought processes that led up the actual committing of the act is over and the physical action is the only thing that is left, some actually act ''happy'' or cheerful because the hardest part is over.

Many people wonder why they couldn't see the signs right before someone committed suicide, it's because they were looking for something 180% from what they actually were seeing.

Posted: 7/8/2023 2:57:30 PM EDT

[#30]

Fuck her and her broken son. She needs to look deep into a mirror and maybe question why he did it not the method. One way or another if someone chooses to opt out of living they will succeed.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:01:53 PM EDT

[#31]

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:12:07 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
It's sad how the grief is almost always misplaced.

A guy my wife dated in high-school killed himself and his mom became a mouth piece for moms demand action.

He stole his current gf's gun and she found it, took it from him and left his apartment. He followed her and when she stopped for gas smashed her windows and stole it back, she confronted him and he told her by the time the cops got there it won't matter. She of course called the police and sped after him. He went back home and immediately shot himself. All over a breakup.

Somehow this is the gunstores fault to his mother and she has slandered them to no end. In fact she completely lies to everyone who will listen now.

But in the immediate aftermath she had lunch with my wife and spilled the beans on what actually happened.

She forgets that she kicked him out at 15 and ignored his severe depression. Hell she ignored the other kids she had until this one offed himself.

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This is the same organization that considered the Boston bomber a victim of gun violence.
If she's actually prominent in the org, it may be worth naming names to counter her BS.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:13:14 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
It there was no gun rental available, he would have done it another way. The gun rental is not the problem.

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Obviously you're correct. But the gun rental place might have some money she could win a civil suit so here we are.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:16:17 PM EDT

[#34]

“He lied on the application probably (at the gun range). He went in there and got a gun.”

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So she doesn't even know if her son followed the rules in the first place, but she still wants the rules changed?

Sadly, there are politicians who will inflame her grief so that they can them prostitute it.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:19:35 PM EDT

[#35]

Fuck her. The gun, us, the range……had ZERO to do with her sons suicide. She can’t prove a negative and it wouldn’t matter anyhow. He needed institutionalization and nothing less.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:21:26 PM EDT

[#36]

Gun, train tracks, tall building. Unhappy man was going to do it anyway. Be grateful he didn't feel the need to take anyone with him as some do..

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:24:44 PM EDT

[#37]

So what do we need a question on a form “Are you suicidal or plan to harm yourself/others with a gun we rent you?” Will we need these questions on rental cars? No such thing as personal responsibility or maybe recognizing your kid/family member is fucked up a commit them to get help.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:31:53 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
So what do we need a question on a form “Are you suicidal or plan to harm yourself/others with a gun we rent you?” Will we need these questions on rental cars? No such thing as personal responsibility or maybe recognizing your kid/family member is fucked up a commit them to get help.

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And suicidal people would just lie anyway, so the next tactic will be the counter guy should have diagnosed the shooter at a glance so I'm suing anyway.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:36:10 PM EDT

[#39]

The things people will do to deflect they were a shitty parent.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:38:29 PM EDT

[#40]

I was on a business trip in Tacoma WA and went to a good range. I had my own guns but they had a rule that they wouldn’t rent to a single individual, only to a pair a group.
It seems like that would cut down their chances of a suicidal subject renting a gun.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:40:29 PM EDT

[#41]

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Quoted:
That happened around here years ago. They changed their policy so in order to walk in and rent a gun, you had to have your own with you.

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Same here, you need to either already have a gun or have someone with you.

It isn’t so much suicide prevention as it is to prevent suicide on their range where they have to clean it up.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:47:45 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
There was a rash of people doing that in my area about 20 years ago. All of the ranges voluntarily adopted rules like not renting to a first-time customer who shows up alone and unarmed, not renting to anyone who appears to be intoxicated or disoriented or distraught, etc. I wouldn't want to have to clean up after a suicide in a shooting range that I owned or managed.

Insurance companies and lawyers can get restrictions imposed a lot faster than government can.

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A guy kill himself two stalls down from me. I remember the cops asking me if I heard the shot, the range was packed at the time and the question through me off.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:49:41 PM EDT

[#43]

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Quoted:
It there was no gun rental available, he would have done it another way. The gun rental is not the problem.

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No true, but likely. There is something called coupling. Many suicidal people are coupled to a method of suicide, this ranges from 30-90% depending on the expert, paper or research you do. I believe it's probably sound 40%

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:51:20 PM EDT

[#44]

I’ve been to that range before it’s nice.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:55:26 PM EDT

[#45]

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Fuck her. The gun, us, the range had ZERO to do with her sons suicide. She can't prove a negative and it wouldn't matter anyhow. He needed institutionalization and nothing less.

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I'm pretty sure the gun had 100% to do with her sons suicide by gun.

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:57:56 PM EDT

[#46]

Blames everything but herself. Should have locked up her crazy spawn. She knew he was a whacko. Ban all bridges for the jumpers?

Posted: 7/8/2023 3:58:44 PM EDT

[#47]

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Quoted:
I'm pretty sure the gun had 100% to do with her sons suicide by gun.

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They don’t go off by themselves……so no. And it was a bullet that did the “job”.

Posted: 7/8/2023 4:02:29 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
https://www.azfamily.com/2023/07/08/scottsdale-mother-pushes-stricter-gun-rental-process-after-sons-suicide/

SCOTTSDALE, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) - A Scottsdale mother is pushing for change after she felt it was too easy for her son, who was suffering from mental health issues, to rent a gun at a local gun range and then turn it on himself. “I don’t want this to happen to another family,” said the mother.

She said her son’s life spiraled out of control while he lived across the country. After losing his job, relationship and continued battles with mental health, he moved back in with her to try and get his life back on track. She felt he had improved but still had mental health struggles.

Things took a dark turn when he went to run an errand but instead walked into the gun range nearby. “He wasn’t in his right mind, he needed help, but he easily went to that gun range, rented a gun and turned it on himself.”

C2 Tactical released this statement:

“We are shocked and heartbroken at the actions taken by a guest on Thursday, July 6. We value the safety and wellbeing of each guest and employ safety officers at each range, many with military and law enforcement backgrounds, to ensure this is a protected environment for everyone.”
C2 Tactical

This mother said she’s not anti-gun but has concerns about how someone with severe mental health issues can rent one at a gun range.

The process is different than buying a gun. Arizona’s Family spoke with Arizona gun rights activist and communications director for Arizona Citizens Defense League, Charles Heller, about the process gun ranges take. He said it can vary from place to place. “You present them your ID, they show you the rules, they ask if you have any convictions. There’s a number of questions you have to check off, and then they’ll rent you the gun. They also talk to you about safety at the range,” said Heller.

This mother feels the process to rent at the range should be the same as buying a gun. She felt her son wouldn’t have passed that background check. “He lied on the application probably (at the gun range). He went in there and got a gun.”

Heller said the gun community takes these tragic incidents seriously. “The National Shooting Sports Foundation has a program for retail sales to spot signs of depression. They have every right to refuse a sale or refuse a rental. Sometimes you can’t tell if someone is depressed and wants to do themselves harm when you rent them the gun.”

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