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Posted: 9/18/2023 6:41:37 PM EST
[#1]
Fish & Wildlife. Is that State or Fed?
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Posted: 9/18/2023 7:40:30 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpanishInquisition: Fish & Wildlife. Is that State or Fed? US Fish and Wildlife is Fed. Texas has Texas Parks and Wildlife. (TPWD) Texas' EPA equivalent is the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TCEQ) |
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Posted: 9/18/2023 9:11:08 PM EST
[#3]
FFS
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OR, USA
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Posted: 9/18/2023 9:15:50 PM EST
[#4]
When I saw the test video of the deluge system I noticed the water is just running off the pad into the sand. I was worried about erosion undermining the pad over time. Guess now someone has to measure how many fish and birds will die due to the runoff now.
Spa ex needs to build some runoff holding tanks and filters before the fish cops say no more big damn rocket launches. Anyone have any ideas what kind of chemicals might be coming out of the launch site when they fire the engines? Doesn't raptor use some hypergolics for startup? IIRC most hypergolics are nasty stuff. |
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Posted: 9/18/2023 9:48:20 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mort: When I saw the test video of the deluge system I noticed the water is just running off the pad into the sand. I was worried about erosion undermining the pad over time. Guess now someone has to measure how many fish and birds will die due to the runoff now. Spa ex needs to build some runoff holding tanks and filters before the fish cops say no more big damn rocket launches. Anyone have any ideas what kind of chemicals might be coming out of the launch site when they fire the engines? Doesn't raptor use some hypergolics for startup? IIRC most hypergolics are nasty stuff. Raptor/starship uses ignitors not hypergolics (TEA-TEB) like merlin/falcon 9. Space X did build a wall and retention pond for the deluge system, though it doesn't catch all the water.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:00:33 AM EST
[#6]
I doubt there is much getting past that stormwater pond. Much is getting vaporized.
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:05:41 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: I doubt there is much getting past that stormwater pond. Much is getting vaporized. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:47:02 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fredegar: FFS It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. 
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:08:43 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By fredegar: FFS It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. Likely a "get both" situation. 
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Posted: 9/19/2023 11:21:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: Fulcrum-5]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. I think it's actually a case of the "regulatory office" within an agency (as opposed to, say, the actual "licensing office" at the FAA, which seems to have been very quick to process SpaceX applications) moving at their traditional speed and being unwilling to update procedures to deal with the much more rapid pace of NewSpace testing. Fish and Wildlife snoozing out a report/inspection in 180 days would mean nothing to old-timey Boeing/ULA/LockMart/NG, who would expect to go 18 months or several years between a RUD and the next flight attempt. SpaceX goes weeks/months (and RSpace/RocketLab/etc seem to be similar outfits) between a failure and the next iteration's test. The folks at the FAA (as an example) who deal with space launch (NOTAMs, launch licenses, etc) are (or seem to be) quick off the mark, and know there's a time factor involved.....but they aren't the ones in charge of FAA environmental reviews, and nobody at Fish & Wildlife does "Space". I don't think there's any "malice" here (as yet....), just bureaucracy that doesn't "do" Space suddenly having to "do" Space and moving at its customary speed. The dumb part of all this is that, if Musk was doing Starship (as opposed to "just" HLS-Starship) on a NASA/DOD contract.....they'd be launching from the Cape, and blasting every bird, fish, gator, and manatee for miles....with ZFG. The FAA, EPA, and F&W wouldn't get a say, because .gov launches aren't subject to that kind of interference. However, since Starship is being launched from Starbase, as a "private" development program, on Musk's own dime.....suddenly the Roolz have to be obeyed in all respects, and they get to move at the speed of Paperwork. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 9/19/2023 12:48:27 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 9/19/2023 1:12:46 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Volksgewehr: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Volksgewehr: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 1:39:56 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fulcrum-5: The dumb part of all this is that, if Musk was doing Starship (as opposed to "just" HLS-Starship) on a NASA/DOD contract.....they'd be launching from the Cape, and blasting every bird, fish, gator, and manatee for miles....with ZFG. The FAA, EPA, and F&W wouldn't get a say, because .gov launches aren't subject to that kind of interference. However, since Starship is being launched from Starbase, as a "private" development program, on Musk's own dime.....suddenly the Roolz have to be obeyed in all respects, and they get to move at the speed of Paperwork. In other words, "job justification". CMOS |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/19/2023 1:42:36 PM EST
[#14]
Dear Elon,
Tell everyone to stay the fuck away between xyz time, light that fucker and laugh. Prove to them you can and will win the space race. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 2:00:57 PM EST
[#15]
Fucking Vogons.
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Posted: 9/19/2023 3:09:10 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fulcrum-5: I think it's actually a case of the "regulatory office" within an agency (as opposed to, say, the actual "licensing office" at the FAA, which seems to have been very quick to process SpaceX applications) moving at their traditional speed and being unwilling to update procedures to deal with the much more rapid pace of NewSpace testing. Fish and Wildlife snoozing out a report/inspection in 180 days would mean nothing to old-timey Boeing/ULA/LockMart/NG, who would expect to go 18 months or several years between a RUD and the next flight attempt. SpaceX goes weeks/months (and RSpace/RocketLab/etc seem to be similar outfits) between a failure and the next iteration's test. The folks at the FAA (as an example) who deal with space launch (NOTAMs, launch licenses, etc) are (or seem to be) quick off the mark, and know there's a time factor involved.....but they aren't the ones in charge of FAA environmental reviews, and nobody at Fish & Wildlife does "Space". I don't think there's any "malice" here (as yet....), just bureaucracy that doesn't "do" Space suddenly having to "do" Space and moving at its customary speed. The dumb part of all this is that, if Musk was doing Starship (as opposed to "just" HLS-Starship) on a NASA/DOD contract.....they'd be launching from the Cape, and blasting every bird, fish, gator, and manatee for miles....with ZFG. The FAA, EPA, and F&W wouldn't get a say, because .gov launches aren't subject to that kind of interference. However, since Starship is being launched from Starbase, as a "private" development program, on Musk's own dime.....suddenly the Roolz have to be obeyed in all respects, and they get to move at the speed of Paperwork. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fulcrum-5: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. I think it's actually a case of the "regulatory office" within an agency (as opposed to, say, the actual "licensing office" at the FAA, which seems to have been very quick to process SpaceX applications) moving at their traditional speed and being unwilling to update procedures to deal with the much more rapid pace of NewSpace testing. Fish and Wildlife snoozing out a report/inspection in 180 days would mean nothing to old-timey Boeing/ULA/LockMart/NG, who would expect to go 18 months or several years between a RUD and the next flight attempt. SpaceX goes weeks/months (and RSpace/RocketLab/etc seem to be similar outfits) between a failure and the next iteration's test. The folks at the FAA (as an example) who deal with space launch (NOTAMs, launch licenses, etc) are (or seem to be) quick off the mark, and know there's a time factor involved.....but they aren't the ones in charge of FAA environmental reviews, and nobody at Fish & Wildlife does "Space". I don't think there's any "malice" here (as yet....), just bureaucracy that doesn't "do" Space suddenly having to "do" Space and moving at its customary speed. The dumb part of all this is that, if Musk was doing Starship (as opposed to "just" HLS-Starship) on a NASA/DOD contract.....they'd be launching from the Cape, and blasting every bird, fish, gator, and manatee for miles....with ZFG. The FAA, EPA, and F&W wouldn't get a say, because .gov launches aren't subject to that kind of interference. However, since Starship is being launched from Starbase, as a "private" development program, on Musk's own dime.....suddenly the Roolz have to be obeyed in all respects, and they get to move at the speed of Paperwork. I said this a few hundred pages ago - anybody who has been to the Cape (awesome beaches) knows it's a wildlife reserve and all the rockets haven't done much to kill all the bugs and birds and fish. Most of the deluge will be vapor and any runoff will run into that brackish water south of the launch tower, but I doubt it will do any harm (F&W will probably say any fresh water will change salinity and ruin it for some shrimp or something) - at least not much compared to 33 Raptors burning.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 5:21:47 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fulcrum-5: I don't think there's any "malice" here On what do you base this supposition? |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 5:35:42 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dedreckon: I said this a few hundred pages ago - anybody who has been to the Cape (awesome beaches) knows it's a wildlife reserve and all the rockets haven't done much to kill all the bugs and birds and fish. Most of the deluge will be vapor and any runoff will run into that brackish water south of the launch tower, but I doubt it will do any harm (F&W will probably say any fresh water will change salinity and ruin it for some shrimp or something) - at least not much compared to 33 Raptors burning. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239278/Boca_Chica_png-2959586.JPG Vastly more water dilutes the slough every time they get a good rain storm. The local fauna have coping mechanisms. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 5:36:10 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kill-9: On what do you base this supposition? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kill-9: Originally Posted By Fulcrum-5: I don't think there's any "malice" here On what do you base this supposition? Hanlon’s razor. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 7:37:07 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grendelsbane: Vastly more water dilutes the slough every time they get a good rain storm. The local fauna have coping mechanisms. I doubt the EPA considers facts like that. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 7:57:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: Fulcrum-5]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kill-9: On what do you base this supposition? On the rest of the post that you snipped off. Also Hanlon's Razor, as noted. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 8:24:00 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoseCuervo: I doubt the EPA considers facts like that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoseCuervo: Originally Posted By Grendelsbane: Vastly more water dilutes the slough every time they get a good rain storm. The local fauna have coping mechanisms. I doubt the EPA considers facts like that. Of course. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 8:30:26 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6VfGnVWYAAB5tv?format=jpg&name=large  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:15:52 PM EST
[#24]
I had some down time this weekend and I put on You Only Live Twice. After a few beers I came to the realization that if Elon was evil he could very well be Blofeld and be in charge of SPECTRE. After all he has made a gigantic rocket ship that could very well capture other ships/satellites and lands the exact same way. Then I started to figure out what matched: Special Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion
Special Executive...Check Counter Intelligence...maybe, have to admit if there were cameras on each Starlink bird then he would have the largest spy network. Terrorism...Check, at least according to the green hippies worrying about the discharge. Revenge...Check, fucking over the autoworker union by moving to Texas. Extortion...Yet to been seen. However if you replace Extortion for Exposing then a big check considering some of the twitter files that were released. Like I said...I had a few beers.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:29:32 PM EST
[#25]
They will use the government shutdown to delay it.
Like a lot |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:29:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: Hesperus]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By The_Syndicate: I had some down time this weekend and I put on You Only Live Twice. After a few beers I came to the realization that if Elon was evil he could very well be Blofeld and be in charge of SPECTRE. After all he has made a gigantic rocket ship that could very well capture other ships/satellites and lands the exact same way. Then I started to figure out what matched: Special Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion Special Executive...Check Counter Intelligence...maybe, have to admit if there were cameras on each Starlink bird then he would have the largest spy network. Terrorism...Check, at least according to the green hippies worrying about the discharge. Revenge...Check, fucking over the autoworker union by moving to Texas. Extortion...Yet to been seen. However if you replace Extortion for Exposing then a big check considering some of the twitter files that were released. Like I said...I had a few beers. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/85934/D35-oBpWwAY2J-e_jpg-2960014.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/85934/yolt02_jpg-2960016.JPG Interesting, one little issue as I see it. The rocket in these images is much closer to Neutron than Starship or Falcon 9.   Rocket Lab's Reusable Neutron Rocket Animation More than a few people have said that Elon should become a super villain to save humanity from it's own governments. By buying Twitter and shaking everything up there he certainly has painted a giant target on his back.  James Bond - Fun with Blofeld |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:37:07 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoseCuervo: I doubt the EPA considers facts like that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoseCuervo: Originally Posted By Grendelsbane: Vastly more water dilutes the slough every time they get a good rain storm. The local fauna have coping mechanisms. I doubt the EPA considers facts like that. Of course not!  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 9:43:11 PM EST
[#28]
Originally Posted By The_Syndicate: I had some down time this weekend and I put on You Only Live Twice. After a few beers I came to the realization that if Elon was evil he could very well be Blofeld and be in charge of SPECTRE. After all he has made a gigantic rocket ship that could very well capture other ships/satellites and lands the exact same way. Then I started to figure out what matched: Special Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion Special Executive...Check Counter Intelligence...maybe, have to admit if there were cameras on each Starlink bird then he would have the largest spy network. Terrorism...Check, at least according to the green hippies worrying about the discharge. Revenge...Check, fucking over the autoworker union by moving to Texas. Extortion...Yet to been seen. However if you replace Extortion for Exposing then a big check considering some of the twitter files that were released. Like I said...I had a few beers. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/85934/D35-oBpWwAY2J-e_jpg-2960014.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/85934/yolt02_jpg-2960016.JPG Originally Posted By Grendelsbane: Of course not! /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/thatwasdifferent-667.gif  Attached FilePlural.. References.. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:26:34 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slanted: They will use the government shutdown to delay it. Like a lot If the government is shut down tho... who is getting paid to stop them from launching anyways? 
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:32:26 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: If the government is shut down tho... who is getting paid to stop them from launching anyways?  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:33:12 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: If the government is shut down tho... who is getting paid to stop them from launching anyways? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By slanted: They will use the government shutdown to delay it. Like a lot If the government is shut down tho... who is getting paid to stop them from launching anyways? F-ing checkmate!!! |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:36:00 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mort: When I saw the test video of the deluge system I noticed the water is just running off the pad into the sand. I was worried about erosion undermining the pad over time. Guess now someone has to measure how many fish and birds will die due to the runoff now. Spa ex needs to build some runoff holding tanks and filters before the fish cops say no more big damn rocket launches. Anyone have any ideas what kind of chemicals might be coming out of the launch site when they fire the engines? Doesn't raptor use some hypergolics for startup? IIRC most hypergolics are nasty stuff. They already have a holding pond. The chemicals used to start the engines are nitrogen methane and oxygen. They probably do need to extend the pad a bit to actually catch the likely still potable water after it has been slightly warmed... |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:37:40 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: If the government is shut down tho... who is getting paid to stop them from launching anyways? Essential employees. |
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Posted: 9/19/2023 10:42:21 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slanted: They will use the government shutdown to delay it. Like a lot If the government is shut down then they should just launch cause the government cant stop them... |
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WLF
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Posted: 9/20/2023 7:43:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: LurkerII]
[#35]
Short version:
Possibility of no launch this year. FWS has 135 days to issue a final biological assessment. The timeframe can be extended further if additional information is necessary. Also the previously approved PEA may be invalid due to changes at the pad. FFS GD treehuggers!  No Starship launch until 2024?! The FWS throws a wrench in Elon Musk's plans! |
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Posted: 9/20/2023 7:48:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: cyclone]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Originally Posted By fredegar: FFS It's harder and harder to attribute this stuff to incompetence and pointless bureaucracy ... and instead wonder how much is actual deliberate and malice. Probably all of it Musk just needs to develop one of these  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/20/2023 8:02:13 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cyclone: Probably all of it Musk just needs to develop one of these https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/43372/OIP__2__jpg-2960919.JPG 
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USA
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Posted: 9/20/2023 9:13:14 PM EST
[#38]
So pathetic. It's bullshit like this that just turns people away from conservation and environmental preservation all together.
Here's the fix. Install a couple of water cannons on the edges of the property and spray a predetermined amount of salt water during launch to maintain salinity. Bonus points if you load it with enviro-nuts' tears.  |
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Posted: 9/20/2023 9:51:56 PM EST
[#39]
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Posted: 9/21/2023 12:24:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: Fulcrum-5]
[#40]
Maybe time for NASA and the DOD to step in.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2023 2:11:42 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fulcrum-5: Maybe time for NASA and the DOD to step in. NASA can't do shit, but if the DOD said "this is a national security matter", the grouper troopers get to sod off and go sulk somewhere else, period. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 5:41:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: Dagger41]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WesJanson: NASA can't do shit, but if the DOD said "this is a national security matter", the grouper troopers get to sod off and go sulk somewhere else, period. Never fuck with the grouper troopers though. I think they have blanket jurisdiction over all LE agencies. Elon pisses them off and they might seize the entire launch site and everything in it. They love seizing shit just because they can. Industrial processed waste water ???? WTF ??? And then there is this idiot, I think he is going broke. No Starship launch until 2024?! The FWS throws a wrench in Elon Musk's plans! |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 6:20:34 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Commando_Guy: Raptor's got the prettiest exhaust plume out there. Nick Those guys were scary smart. Glad they're on our side. |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 9:33:22 AM EST
[#44]
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Posted: 9/21/2023 10:16:52 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6jkIOFXAAApnE4?format=jpg&name=large |
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Posted: 9/21/2023 10:50:43 AM EST
[#46]
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Posted: 9/21/2023 11:34:45 AM EST
[#47]
I guess they figured they have plenty of time to redesign it or tweak it.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2023 11:41:04 AM EST
[#48]
wtf does USFW have to do with what happens on a TX beach?
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Posted: 9/21/2023 11:46:52 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagger41: I guess they figured they have plenty of time to redesign it or tweak it. Betting you're right. Fuck the government. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2023 12:42:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: guns762]
[#50]
[Deleted]
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