User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:03:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not too worried about losing money on the RMR, it’s going to cost north of $300 to have my slide cut, refinished and suppressor sights added though. Try one of these to see if you like it https://outerimpact.com/shop/red-dot-adapter-mount-smith-wesson-mp-pistol-m-r/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:05:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It adds bulk. It adds a fair bit of complexity, too. It allows most people to shoot more accurately at distance. It requires a presentation that is highly refined...which can be learned, but it takes some work. It's most definitely not for everybody. But I think it will become more common than not in the next 5-10 years. It actually requires slightly less refined presentation than properly aligning irons. If your head is slightly off center but you can still see the dot closer to the side of the window, then the dot is still just as valid an aiming point as if your head was perfectly centered and the dot was in the exact center of the window. Just like with red dots on rifles, the benefit of a parallax-free aiming point is that the relationship between your point of aim and point of impact doesn't actually change with variation in sight alignment. As long as your presentation is good enough that you can see the dot through the window, then you have perfect sight alignment. The position of your gun and head are exactly the same between aligning a red dot and aligning irons. If you need to change the way you present when using a red dot vs using irons, that just means you were never actually aligning your iron sights to begin with. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:09:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm still failing to see how adding a red dot is "complex" It literally makes it way easier to shoot accurately and faster...the opposite of complex. People put red dots on rifles and are like "holy shit thats awesome and easy." But when it comes to handguns its "noooo thats too hard for no benefit wtf I want to be stuck in the 1940s wtf nooooo" Same dudes thinking red dots are complex are probably beating their canes against 5g towers because of the government brain control. My grandfather, RIP, was career military and was in the "fuck your plastic guns.Guns are made from wood and steel" mentality. He then shot my suppressed mk18 and was like holy shit this thing is awesome. This is almost an age thing and not a rmr vs irons debate. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:10:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Try one of these to see if you like it https://outerimpact.com/shop/red-dot-adapter-mount-smith-wesson-mp-pistol-m-r/ Hmmm, maybe my Shield??? It is my primary off duty pistol. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:17:38 AM EDT
[#5]
I'm not a fan, either. I bought an M&P Pro with an RMR and tried like hell to make nice with it, but it's just not for me....especially not anything I'd carry.
Rifles? Different story. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:18:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It adds bulk. It adds a fair bit of complexity, too. It allows most people to shoot more accurately at distance. It requires a presentation that is highly refined...which can be learned, but it takes some work. It's most definitely not for everybody. But I think it will become more common than not in the next 5-10 years.  Do people think you're shooting in another dimension when you have a RDS? If you're having to "highly refine" your presentation with a RDS your irons probably aren't aligned either. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:19:48 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The position of your gun and head are exactly the same between aligning a red dot and aligning irons. Quote HistoryQuoted: The position of your gun and head are exactly the same between aligning a red dot and aligning irons. ...at the end of the presentation. The problem comes in getting to that end. Going from position 3 to 4 with the front sight a little proud and steering it into the rear notch as the gun levels out has been very commonly taught and used, including by people who won national titles. If you do that with a dot you don't get a dot until you are at full presentation. Then you find the dot, then you adjust aim, then you fire. With irons you can see how the sights are misaligned and fix that between 3 and 4. In that process you can get on the trigger a little bit sooner, which generally allows a quicker and more accurate first shot than trying to do it all at once at the end of the presentation. That can be fixed, of course, but it requires changing how you approach the presentation. And while you can still see the irons if you move your head during the presentation, moving your head usually precludes seeing the dot until you bring the gun back into your eyeline. People's tendency to "turtle" during the draw...something actually trained in by some instructors, but mostly done without people even realizing they are doing it...makes finding the dot more difficult for them. Again, things that can be worked on, but it requires changes to long-ingrained practices. If you need to change the way you present when using a red dot vs using irons, that just means you were never actually aligning your iron sights to begin with. No. That's just silly. Plenty of people have been aligning their sights just as I described. If you use that methodology with a dot, it's going to result in seeing it very, very late in the presentation. Again, that can be fixed...but it requires effort to fix. Keeping one's head still during the draw is also crucial...and difficult to ensure under fighting conditions. That, too, can be fixed...but it requires effort and a refined understanding of what's happening during the draw. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:22:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depending on the gun though it can potentially kill the ability to use irons completely (For example, AFAIK retrofitting one onto my P-01 requires losing the rear sight completely due to space limitations), which is the last thing I'd want if I had to draw, only to find my optic had failed. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:24:15 AM EDT
[#9]
I bought my first RMR for a G34 to try out Carry Optics in my local USPSA club, about five or six years ago.
I went to my first practice match with it and immediately realized this was a game changer. I was faster and more accurate after only a few rounds. It wasn't debatable in my mind then, and still isn't now. I ordered another RMR to put on my EDC G19 that evening. I've been carrying that G19 with an RMR since. The added bulk argument doesn't really make sense to me unless you carry a tiny gun, like a G42 or similar. But on anything G26 size or larger, it doesn't make a difference. I've also broken more iron sights on pistols than electronic sights, so there's that. Someone said "self defense is an open division, prepare accordingly" I wish I could remember who said it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:24:55 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do people think you're shooting in another dimension when you have a RDS? If you're having to "highly refine" your presentation with a RDS your irons probably aren't aligned either. When the vast majority of people draw a handgun, their irons are not aligned when they reach full extension. They reach full extension, then fix their sights, and then shoot. Skilled shooters are often doing their sight alignment and even some of their trigger work between 3 and 4 in the four count draw so that when they reach full extension their sights are aligned on target and they can work the last half of the trigger press. Some people, including national champions, have actually trained to present the gun with the front sight high and in the last 1/4 of movement to full extension they drag the front sight into the rear notch as they're working the trigger. This practice is not optimal for the use of a dot. At the END of the presentation, if your dot is there then your sights would be aligned. That's not the refinement necessary. The refinement comes in understanding the process leading to that point and how it has to change to accommodate the narrower field of information you get from the dot's window than from the irons. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:25:56 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I started here. In short, I started from zero when I bought the pistol. On my fighting guns, it would take a complete rework of everything, new or modified guns, plus duty and off duty holsters. This would lead to considerable expense that will not be re compensated by my employer. I will need to see a clear unarguable and distinct advantage before I would consider it. Plus, if the battery dies on my hunting gun, I missed a deer. If it fails on my work gun, I probably died. Well, here's a pretty good one if you're being honest: Miniaturized Red Dot Systems for Duty Handgun Use by Aaron Cowan EDIT: Posted link didn't work for some reason. Just Google the above phrase. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:28:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not a fan, either. I bought an M&P Pro with an RMR and tried like hell to make nice with it, but it's just not for me....especially not anything I'd carry. Rifles? Different story. The exact same way you present your pistol to get sight alignment with your irons will also bring the red dot within view when using an RMR. The red dot is actually more forgiving of imperfect sight alignment than irons, because a parallax-free dot means that the point of impact relative to the point of aim is always the same regardless of where the dot is in the window. Not judging the validity of your decision or the way that you train one way or the other, but if you have difficulty finding the dot then that just means you were never actually aligning your irons to begin with. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:43:01 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the vast majority of people draw a handgun, their irons are not aligned when they reach full extension. They reach full extension, then fix their sights, and then shoot. Skilled shooters are often doing their sight alignment and even some of their trigger work between 3 and 4 in the four count draw so that when they reach full extension their sights are aligned on target and they can work the last half of the trigger press. Some people, including national champions, have actually trained to present the gun with the front sight high and in the last 1/4 of movement to full extension they drag the front sight into the rear notch as they're working the trigger. This practice is not optimal for the use of a dot. At the END of the presentation, if your dot is there then your sights would be aligned. That's not the refinement necessary. The refinement comes in understanding the process leading to that point and how it has to change to accommodate the narrower field of information you get from the dot's window than from the irons. So basically you're talking about having a point of reference with which to bring sights into alignment. Got it, that's a perfectly valid point. But most of the points of reference used to bring irons into alignment also apply for a red dot. For example, having the front sight post high and then bringing it down in between the rear sights is a technique that's also applicable for bringing the red dot within view. You can use the front of the gun and the back of the RMR as points of reference to bring the dot into the window. This is especially easy if you have irons that are tall enough to see through the bottom of the red dot window. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:45:31 AM EDT
[#14]
I just added a SwampFox RMR to a Glock. It's pretty cool so far and doesn't add a bunch of weight or bulk in a reality, but time will tell if I like it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:55:19 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen you post in so many threads and I hate to invite myself to shoot with people but I'd like to get with you sometime and shoot. I love learning and failing at something is how I learn. That last sentence is the absolute biggest truth there is. You learn so much more through failure than you ever do at success and the best things that have happened to me to to be hit really hard with some failures and losses. One thing I say a lot to newer shooters, or experienced shooters who are getting into the competitive scene is “You’ve got to lose to learn how to win.” Sometimes that’s going to mean different things to different people, but for a lot of folks that think they have a handle on their skills it means having a big chip knocked off their shoulder and they start listening and realizing how much work they need to put in to build solid skills. I like to see everyone succeed... That doesn’t mean you need to be collecting trophies because success for you may look different than success for someone else. But as long as you’re moving forward and putting in the work, you’re on that path. Now days almost all of my shooting is competitive oriented, but all of the same lessons translate over. If you ever want to talk about it, shoot me a PM. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 11:58:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the vast majority of people draw a handgun, their irons are not aligned when they reach full extension. They reach full extension, then fix their sights, and then shoot. Skilled shooters are often doing their sight alignment and even some of their trigger work between 3 and 4 in the four count draw so that when they reach full extension their sights are aligned on target and they can work the last half of the trigger press. Some people, including national champions, have actually trained to present the gun with the front sight high and in the last 1/4 of movement to full extension they drag the front sight into the rear notch as they're working the trigger. This practice is not optimal for the use of a dot. At the END of the presentation, if your dot is there then your sights would be aligned. That's not the refinement necessary. The refinement comes in understanding the process leading to that point and how it has to change to accommodate the narrower field of information you get from the dot's window than from the irons. Yes... and that slows you down. So you know what National Champions in iron sight divisions are doing now to fix it? Shooting with a dot and then going back to irons. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 12:00:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see people repeat this mantra often with all of the same rational. I see it from people who think of themselves as advanced shooters who justify it by saying that it’s faster and accurate enough. Guess what happens when I’ve put these people on a clock and start actually recording performance? It’s not faster and accuracy is horrible. I’ve yet to see anyone who can actually perform at the level they think they can using point shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Point shooting is exactly what you’ll be doing when your externally-holstered duty gun’s RDS gets occluded by rain or ditch dirt. Debate it all you like, but instinctive shooting is a critical competency for advanced shooters. It doesn’t mean fundamentals go out the window. It just means you get much faster with ‘em at CQB distances. I see people repeat this mantra often with all of the same rational. I see it from people who think of themselves as advanced shooters who justify it by saying that it’s faster and accurate enough. Guess what happens when I’ve put these people on a clock and start actually recording performance? It’s not faster and accuracy is horrible. I’ve yet to see anyone who can actually perform at the level they think they can using point shooting. Whatever bud. I never said it was the best way to shoot in every scenario. I never said it was the way to get a good qual score. It has its place in the tactical arena, that's undisputable. You're simply not gonna benefit from getting perfect a sight picture and sight alignment in every situation. Some situations will actually prohibit it. As a SME you should know this. One thing I've learned in my career is that 100 instructors are gonna have 100 different opinions. The sooner we all learn to stop competing in the dick show the more productive we and our trainees will be. Fin. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 12:10:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Well, here's a pretty good one if you're being honest: Miniaturized Red Dot Systems for Duty Handgun Use by Aaron Cowan EDIT: Posted link didn't work for some reason. Just Google the above phrase. A link to the full 64 page study can be found at the link. https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 12:16:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whatever bud. I never said it was the best way to shoot in every scenario. I never said it was the way to get a good qual score. It has its place in the tactical arena, that's undisputable. You're simply not gonna benefit from getting perfect a sight picture and sight alignment in every situation. Some situations will actually prohibit it. As a SME you should know this. One thing I've learned in my career is that 100 instructors are gonna have 100 different opinions. The sooner we all learn to stop competing in the dick show the more productive we and our trainees will be. Fin. You don’t need to have a perfect sight picture... you do need to have a sight picture. That’s just another reason why MRDSs are superior, it’s easier to get that with a dot than with irons. This is why you’ll be shooting the streak instead of the dot when you’re running a dot equipped handgun hard. The proof is in the pudding. I encourage you to read the Sage Dynamics MRDS White Paper on the subject. If you’re in a hurry, start on Page 36. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 12:16:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A link to the full 64 page study can be found at the link. https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/ https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50922829767_f3d73ebc0c_z.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50922018748_624035939e_z.jpg Great minds and all.... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 12:30:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes... and that slows you down. So you know what National Champions in iron sight divisions are doing now to fix it? Shooting with a dot and then going back to irons. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When the vast majority of people draw a handgun, their irons are not aligned when they reach full extension. They reach full extension, then fix their sights, and then shoot. Skilled shooters are often doing their sight alignment and even some of their trigger work between 3 and 4 in the four count draw so that when they reach full extension their sights are aligned on target and they can work the last half of the trigger press. Some people, including national champions, have actually trained to present the gun with the front sight high and in the last 1/4 of movement to full extension they drag the front sight into the rear notch as they're working the trigger. This practice is not optimal for the use of a dot. At the END of the presentation, if your dot is there then your sights would be aligned. That's not the refinement necessary. The refinement comes in understanding the process leading to that point and how it has to change to accommodate the narrower field of information you get from the dot's window than from the irons. Yes... and that slows you down. So you know what National Champions in iron sight divisions are doing now to fix it? Shooting with a dot and then going back to irons. Interdasting... I have noticed that my presentation has gotten smoother with my iron guns after I started shooting guns with dots. I figured it had more to do with practice than anything else, but I can see how the two are tied together. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 12:56:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don’t need to have a perfect sight picture... you do need to have a sight picture. That’s just another reason why MRDSs are superior, it’s easier to get that with a dot than with irons. This is why you’ll be shooting the streak instead of the dot when you’re running a dot equipped handgun hard. The proof is in the pudding. I encourage you to read the Sage Dynamics MRDS White Paper on the subject. If you’re in a hurry, start on Page 36. This... There’s a huge difference between knowing what you can get away with within the parameters of “non-perfect” sight picture and point shooting, which I have always understood to be “pointing my gun at the target and firing.” Anyone who thinks point shooting is “good enough” should shoot the Bill drill at 7 yards. Hell shoot it at 5 yards. Let me know how many upper A zone hits you consistently get “point shooting” at that distance. And that doesn’t have anything to do with a qual score... there’s a reason that box is placed where it is on the target. A zone (in upper a zone for torso) hits are shown to be the only consistent, repeatable way to quickly stop a determined threat. Keeping in mind that A zone will get a lot smaller when you are moving and your attacker is moving, which are likely the only guarantees in a self-defense scenario. Prisons are full of guys who have been shot in places other than the upper A zone. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 1:00:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Your gun, your business. But it seems everyone is adding more attachments to their ccw. Admittedly, I did add night sights but that did not affect the bulk. I also understand the red dots on AR's. I'm not getting the red dots on CCW's. Did I miss the memo? It seems like optics on a CCW adds bulk like a light. Just put an RMR on a 19.5 MOS. Going to test it and see. I am pretty proficient with irons but this is another tool in the box. Will take a lot of testing and practice before I rule it good for me. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 1:27:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your gun, your business. But it seems everyone is adding more attachments to their ccw. Admittedly, I did add night sights but that did not affect the bulk. I also understand the red dots on AR's. I'm not getting the red dots on CCW's. Did I miss the memo? It seems like optics on a CCW adds bulk like a light. It’s not like a light where it makes the front end of the pistol wider potentially jabbing your thigh/groin/crotch area. A belt buckle adds bulk and prints about as much as a MRDS. Reason why a lot of people offset the buckle to support side when carrying appendix. I’m not seeing people in a hurry to ditch their gun belts for the sake of printing less. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 1:50:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I take it you have never seen Star Wars. Solo most of the time was a hip shooter like in the old westerns. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 2:11:25 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This... There’s a huge difference between knowing what you can get away with within the parameters of “non-perfect” sight picture and point shooting, which I have always understood to be “pointing my gun at the target and firing.” Anyone who thinks point shooting is “good enough” should shoot the Bill drill at 7 yards. Hell shoot it at 5 yards. Let me know how many upper A zone hits you consistently get “point shooting” at that distance. And that doesn’t have anything to do with a qual score... there’s a reason that box is placed where it is on the target. A zone (in upper a zone for torso) hits are shown to be the only consistent, repeatable way to quickly stop a determined threat. Keeping in mind that A zone will get a lot smaller when you are moving and your attacker is moving, which are likely the only guarantees in a self-defense scenario. Prisons are full of guys who have been shot in places other than the upper A zone. Nobody is suggesting that point shooting is just as accurate as aligning a sight picture. What's being suggested is that if your target is shooting back at you, then the winner of that fight is generally the one who hits the other guy first. You won't be putting rounds in his A zone at all after he puts his first round into your shoulder or stomach during the time that you spent aligning your sight picture onto his A zone, because he was satisfied to get hits anywhere on you just as long as they got there first. And now he can keep putting more rounds on you with more accuracy thanks to the fact that you're probably not putting rounds on him. Just because hits aren't hitting vitals doesn't mean they don't count for anything. A hit to the heart is obviously better than a hit to the shoulder, but the hit to the shoulder is better than the shot that never actually hits the heart because you got hit in the shoulder before getting your first round off. Obviously I'm not arguing that mediocre accuracy is just as good as perfect accuracy, just that there are some circumstances where mediocre accuracy is acceptable if it means putting hits on the other guy first. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 2:48:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nobody is suggesting that point shooting is just as accurate as aligning a sight picture. What's being suggested is that if your target is shooting back at you, then the winner of that fight is generally the one who hits the other guy first. You won't be putting rounds in his A zone at all after he puts his first round into your shoulder or stomach during the time that you spent aligning your sight picture onto his A zone, because he was satisfied to get hits anywhere on you just as long as they got there first. And now he can keep putting more rounds on you with more accuracy thanks to the fact that you're probably not putting rounds on him. Just because hits aren't hitting vitals doesn't mean they don't count for anything. A hit to the heart is obviously better than a hit to the shoulder, but the hit to the shoulder is better than the shot that never actually hits the heart because you got hit in the shoulder before getting your first round off. Obviously I'm not arguing that mediocre accuracy is just as good as perfect accuracy, just that there are some circumstances where mediocre accuracy is acceptable if it means putting hits on the other guy first. I hear a lot of LEOs make these points. It explains the piss poor hit rates in a lot of officer involved shootings. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 2:52:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Wait, lots of you think a red dot adds appreciable bulk?
Its an ounce. It fits in 90% of the same holsters (99% if you dremel or heat gun them). Has no affect on printing. There's many reasons for no dot, but bulk is preposterous. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 2:54:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, lots of you think a red dot adds appreciable bulk? Its an ounce. It fits in 90% of the same holsters (99% if you dremel or heat gun them). Has no affect on printing. There's many reasons for no dot, but bulk is preposterous. Well yeah, but almost all of the other criticisms are just made up as well so this fits right in. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 3:11:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One thing that helped me a lot was focusing on the target instead of trying to find the dot during my draw. With irons I’m picking them up on the way out, instead of just letting the red dot overlay my target focus... if that makes sense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not really. If your draw and presentation are shit, then you'll notice with an rds and think you have to search for the dot. But, that just means that you were also shitty with irons. Get gud. Don't be shitty. One thing that helped me a lot was focusing on the target instead of trying to find the dot during my draw. With irons I’m picking them up on the way out, instead of just letting the red dot overlay my target focus... if that makes sense. That was it for me, I was spending so much time worrying about the dot and making it my primary focus it was causing me issues. Now when practicing I'm drawing, focusing on the target, and bringing the gun up and there it is. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 3:30:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I started here. In short, I started from zero when I bought the pistol. On my fighting guns, it would take a complete rework of everything, new or modified guns, plus duty and off duty holsters. This would lead to considerable expense that will not be re compensated by my employer. I will need to see a clear unarguable and distinct advantage before I would consider it. Plus, if the battery dies on my hunting gun, I missed a deer. If it fails on my work gun, I probably died. I can understand the cost associated with your CCW guns if they don't already have the cut, investing in a quality optic, getting extra holsters designed for the optic, etc. That said, there are far more than anecdotal evidence that optics are rugged, have long battery life, and if setup properly, you can configure your CCW to have BUIS co-sight. ROCK6 |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 3:46:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hear a lot of LEOs make these points. It explains the piss poor hit rates in a lot of officer involved shootings. That might have more to do with the fact that the overwhelming majority of LEOs practice with their firearms once a year. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:00:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That might have more to do with the fact that the overwhelming majority of LEOs practice with their firearms once a year. Damn... maybe there’s a connection between shitty training and reliance on point shooting. I wonder if anyone made that point in this thread? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:04:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn... maybe there’s a connection between shitty training and reliance on point shooting. I wonder if anyone made that point in this thread? I wonder if you've actually been in a real life gunfight where real live criminals were really trying to kill you at less than 20ft. Your comments in this thread read gamer that thinks he's an expert, all day long. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:13:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if you've actually been in a real life gunfight where real live criminals were really trying to kill you at less than 20ft. Your comments in this thread read gamer that thinks he's an expert, all day long. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Damn... maybe there’s a connection between shitty training and reliance on point shooting. I wonder if anyone made that point in this thread? I wonder if you've actually been in a real life gunfight where real live criminals were really trying to kill you at less than 20ft. Your comments in this thread read gamer that thinks he's an expert, all day long. Damn those gamers using sights, that’s cheating! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:15:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if you've actually been in a real life gunfight where real live criminals were really trying to kill you at less than 20ft. Your comments in this thread read gamer that thinks he's an expert, all day long. I have, in Iraq. I used my sights. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:16:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn those gamers using sights, that’s cheating! For games, it's fine, if you have the luxury of distance, it's fine. If you don't and the real threat is close, tactics would dictate another method. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:18:12 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For games, it's fine, if you have the luxury of distance, it's fine. If you don't and the real threat is close, tactics would dictate another method. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Damn those gamers using sights, that’s cheating! For games, it's fine, if you have the luxury of distance, it's fine. If you don't and the real threat is close, tactics would dictate another method. You’ll excuse me if I pass on the ishalla philosophy of shooting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:18:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have, in Iraq. I used my sights. At what range? Push off distance or ??? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:18:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmmm, maybe my Shield??? It is my primary off duty pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Try one of these to see if you like it https://outerimpact.com/shop/red-dot-adapter-mount-smith-wesson-mp-pistol-m-r/ Hmmm, maybe my Shield??? It is my primary off duty pistol. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:19:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At what range? Push off distance or ??? Across an alley distance. 15’ to 20’ sounds about right. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:29:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Across an alley distance. 15’ to 20’ sounds about right. Ah, that makes more sense. 20' would be about the outside limit for point shooting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:29:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Most of my pistols have red dots & tall sights on them now. My first into to pistols with red dots was a 226 RX slide I put on a PD trade 40 frame and I knew I was hooked soon as I put them together. My eyesight sucks and it was a huge improvement to both speed and accuracy for me.
Not a fan of the Glock MOS system though. Puts the irons way too damn low in the optic and you could only see the top half of the ring on the front sight. My M&P Core doesn't have this problem though. Ended up selling the MOS slide and buying/using a premilled G17 slide instead. Pictures are of same sights, first is MOS slide, 2nd is the Brownells premilled I got to replace it.  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:31:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Why not use ever advantage out there. I have no issue concealing a full size handgun with RDS and light.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:40:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Point shooting? Hahahah
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:48:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Point shooting? Hahahah Soon as I hear that I say thats cool and walk off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 4:50:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They also have full auto guns and suppressors. Which has zero to do with civilian shootings. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Does Delta use red dots? They also have full auto guns and suppressors. Which has zero to do with civilian shootings. Carbines are very rarely shot on auto. "Civilians" can have the same shit that an assaulter has... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 5:22:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Holy fuck... just read the whole thread. So much derp!
Point shooting? Unless I'm shooting from retention at bad breath distances, I'm using my site(s). As should everyone. Recently sent some rounds downrange with a 320 Pro with a 6moa Romeo1 Pro. I'm sold. Every handgun of mine that is optic ready is getting one. Mine will be 3moa though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 5:54:27 PM EDT
[#49]
I just purchased a Glock 43Xmos and want to get a red dot for it , are the Trijicon’s worth the coin looking at $500/600 depending on the model , I work close to B&H photo and checked out the RMRcc 3.25 MOA dot that they have in stock they can get any Trijicon sight within two days as they have a warehouse in NJ , any advise would be greatly appreciated fairly new to target shooting with hand guns .
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/8/2021 6:21:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: China Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thoughts on the new Holosun Vulcan reticle? China I see a lot of Holosun optics in this thread and it looks to me like Primary Arms made a better mousetrap with this reticle. Anyone with thoughts on it? |
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
