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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:40:27 PM EDT
[#1]
My response---perhaps silly pricing compared to a run-of-the-mill AR series, but compare the pricing to some of the other more esoteric autoloaders like a SCAR. The pricing isn't so out of line.
While pricing might be in line with the SCAR - capabilities aren't. You lose the ability to shorten the stock and adjust comb height, lose the free floated barrel, you lose the ergonomics, and you lose the fast magazine changes,. Yeah, when compared to an AR design. Compared to almost any OTHER autoloader, they are on par. Show me a fast mag change on an AK, please. I'd note the SCAR (you mentioned earlier) is just as fast an an AR  . Why would going backward in capability be a good thing? I'd also ask why you took the AK out of the garbage can - put it back. I'd be more likely to grab a bullpup than an AK.
True, but I don't wear body armor, since I am not a Tier One "Operator" (which is the case for 90% of the guys on this forum  ) Then again, fixed stock AR series don' t have adjustable length of pull either, and nobody complains about those.
Several things wrong with this comment 1) The OP asked why bullpups have not caught on as much. Body Armor usage has gone up in militaries - the fact the rifle doesn't work well with armor is a reason why they haven't caught on. 2) Wearing bulky clothes (like winter jackets) is similar and the need for a stock adjustment is there. Some of us shoot all year round outside. 3) Stock length needs change with shooting position. I don't do all my shooting from a bench YMMV 4) Different people need different lengths. For example when I let my son shoot my rifles he needs a different stock length. Compared to an AR, perhaps. But compare it to say, a G3. Now tell me which one has a worse trigger. (Factory G3 triggers came in at OVER 10 lbs by Bundeswehr specification!) Weight =/= as crispness or creep. I can shoot a heavy trigger so long as it's consistent and not spongy. But then I'd say again - why is going backwards (worse trigger) a good thing? That's just another compromise that reduces effectiveness. Yeah, and spare parts for a SCAR are common as dirt. 
Is the SCAR a popular weapon? Like the Bullpup they are a niche item - hence the lack of one in my collection. But if I really needed them there are parts suppliers for the SCAR, can't say that about the FN2000. Measuring ergos against the AR series will make ANY other rifle be in second place, since the AR is probably the most ergonomic rifle in history. Except maybe the ACR or SCAR... 
But the ergos of the newer bullpups are not horrible, and certainly are no worse than an AK.... Damning by faint praise. AK ergonomics are a Charlie Foxtrot at best. Heck I think the M1 Carbine has better ergonomics than the AK. Again why are you looking to give up the improvements we have over earlier rifles? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:40:54 PM EDT
[#2]
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Whatever it is its gayer than two boys fucking! Never heard that term my entire time in the Army. I wonder if its another thing the 300lb HSLD operators use to make themselves sound important! Also where can I pick up one of these manuals? I know Baron von Steuben wrote one a while ago. Amazon maybe? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Did you mean manual of arms? Or man at arms? Or did you spell Manuel wrong? I've bullpup'd. I sold them a long time ago. I collect odd, weird & impractical guns as well now, so they might have a place in my collection again one day. Whatever it is its gayer than two boys fucking! Never heard that term my entire time in the Army. I wonder if its another thing the 300lb HSLD operators use to make themselves sound important! Also where can I pick up one of these manuals? I know Baron von Steuben wrote one a while ago. Amazon maybe? I found this under one of my flab folds for you and your tooth nubs. http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/vn/m16-manual.html |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:42:43 PM EDT
[#3]
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Desert Tech announced a bullpup rifle called the MDR at the Shot Show this year. http://deserttech.com/mdr.php It looks neat, but the ejection port looks like it could be a problem. I'm curious how the design actually performs. Kel-Tec also announced their own bullpup that bottom ejects. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/16/kel-tec-rdb-bullpup-first-impressions/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because the FS 2000 failed to live up to expectations.  Tactical TUNA! Personally, I'm interested in the new Desert-Tech bullpup.... -ZA +1 http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/desert-tech03.jpg There's also the Radom MSBS Bullpup configuration, http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/fb-radom-msbs556-bullpup-demo-02.jpg What is this? I thought Desert Tech made sniper rifles Desert Tech announced a bullpup rifle called the MDR at the Shot Show this year. http://deserttech.com/mdr.php It looks neat, but the ejection port looks like it could be a problem. I'm curious how the design actually performs. Kel-Tec also announced their own bullpup that bottom ejects. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/16/kel-tec-rdb-bullpup-first-impressions/ Say what you want about Keltec but they are at least designing new and interesting firearms! |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:43:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryHey, look! She's a bullpup enthusiast that shot support side. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:43:50 PM EDT
[#5]
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I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:46:48 PM EDT
[#6]
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Say what you want about Keltec but they are at least designing new and interesting firearms! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Desert Tech announced a bullpup rifle called the MDR at the Shot Show this year. http://deserttech.com/mdr.php It looks neat, but the ejection port looks like it could be a problem. I'm curious how the design actually performs. Kel-Tec also announced their own bullpup that bottom ejects. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/16/kel-tec-rdb-bullpup-first-impressions/ Say what you want about Keltec but they are at least designing new and interesting firearms! I agree. I'm aware of the common complaints people make against Kel-Tec, but they certainly come up with some cool designs that are innovative. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:53:38 PM EDT
[#7]
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And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 3:58:46 PM EDT
[#8]
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You seem FAMILIAR... 
I'm kidding! I like my FS2000. Don't hate! I think a bunch of arfcomers hate the triggers on most bullpups. Price is a problem as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because the FS 2000 failed to live up to expectations. You seem FAMILIAR...
I'm kidding! I like my FS2000. Don't hate! I think a bunch of arfcomers hate the triggers on most bullpups. Price is a problem as well. I sold mine not because of the trigger but because of the lack of bolt hold open, tight magwell and overall thickness. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:00:48 PM EDT
[#9]
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Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Another interesting point. I had an AUG and it ran well for me. Tried it but realized there were features missing that my ARs had. Sold it and moved on. But you bring up the economic question. Most folks will simply opt for what's cheaper and easier to access on the market. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:03:14 PM EDT
[#10]
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SBR OAL, with a carbine/rifle length barrel...seems like a win win. The stuff that is out there now is awesome, but very pricey. Why hasn't anyone made an "AR priced" bullpup yet? I mostly just want one of these. http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/keltec_rfb_fde_2.jpg or these http://www.iwi.us/iwi/media/products/Tavor-TSFD18.jpg People who have used bullpups don't like the ergos, especially mag changes prone (in particular, the X95 Tavor 2). I can't comment because I have not used one. And aside from the FS 2000 all of the forward ejection bullpups don't seem to work that well, which makes switching sides a pain. I'd say a 14-16" regular rifle is a good compromise. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:03:53 PM EDT
[#11]
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I found this under one of my flab folds for you and your tooth nubs. http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/vn/m16-manual.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Did you mean manual of arms? Or man at arms? Or did you spell Manuel wrong? I've bullpup'd. I sold them a long time ago. I collect odd, weird & impractical guns as well now, so they might have a place in my collection again one day. Whatever it is its gayer than two boys fucking! Never heard that term my entire time in the Army. I wonder if its another thing the 300lb HSLD operators use to make themselves sound important! Also where can I pick up one of these manuals? I know Baron von Steuben wrote one a while ago. Amazon maybe? I found this under one of my flab folds for you and your tooth nubs. http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/vn/m16-manual.html So now you are insulting me? For your information I have all my toofeses! If you could read, the manual of arms for the Army and other services pertains to drill and ceremony. Not the actual operation of the weapon system. Like I said before people who use this term have not a clue as to what they are talking about. I would bet money on it! |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:05:30 PM EDT
[#12]
AK > Bullpups > AR
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:06:51 PM EDT
[#13]
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AK > Bullpups > AR you've got your '<' the wrong way around |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:07:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AK > Bullpups > AR That is the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this website.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:09:24 PM EDT
[#15]
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Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. You can buy PSA (largely FNH) and Colt M4s for that price. They have everything a basic Tavor does. Piston doesn't mean anything. Do you complain about the lack of a piston in your pistols?  They even tend to come with the Magpul forearm, which works nicely for mounting flash lights.
You don't need to compare it to a top of the shelf precision AR. That being said, ARs are very cheap because they are old designs with a lot of maker competing to lower the price. You won't see this happen with new items, gun or not. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:10:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Piston doesn't mean anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. Piston doesn't mean anything. Piston is actually a negative.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:11:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Personally I do not care for them because: 1.) Cost. 2.) Ergonomics 3.) Muzzle blast too close to my face. 4.) Shitty balance for offhand/iron sight shooting. 5.) What's a bayonet? I do not ever foresee one in my collection. If someone really wanted a bayonet, the AUG, RFB, and 18" Tavor all can have one. AUG and RFB you have to buy the lug and install, 18" Tavor has it pinned on already. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:12:02 PM EDT
[#18]
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Piston is actually a negative. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. Piston doesn't mean anything. Piston is actually a negative. Probably, especially if they are those no name brand drop in kits. A rifle built around the regular piston design (FNC, whatever)? Different story. Though do you happen to know how the HK 416 series holds up? Seems like they put more effort into it than most. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:14:18 PM EDT
[#19]
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Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Where are you getting $2500 for a bullpup? Tavors are $1600, Augs are $1500, the new M17S is $1800. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:25:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can buy PSA (largely FNH) and Colt M4s for that price. They have everything a basic Tavor does. Piston doesn't mean anything. Do you complain about the lack of a piston in your pistols? They even tend to come with the Magpul forearm, which works nicely for mounting flash lights. You don't need to compare it to a top of the shelf precision AR. That being said, ARs are very cheap because they are old designs with a lot of maker competing to lower the price. You won't see this happen with new items, gun or not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. You can buy PSA (largely FNH) and Colt M4s for that price. They have everything a basic Tavor does. Piston doesn't mean anything. Do you complain about the lack of a piston in your pistols? They even tend to come with the Magpul forearm, which works nicely for mounting flash lights. You don't need to compare it to a top of the shelf precision AR. That being said, ARs are very cheap because they are old designs with a lot of maker competing to lower the price. You won't see this happen with new items, gun or not. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:27:07 PM EDT
[#21]
I have a 16in Tavor and a love it got one of the first 1000 rifles. The price is dropping I saw that Atlantic firearms is selling them for like $1600 with 4 mags ? If you dont like the trigger three new packs are available from Timney Geissele and another I cant think of. I actually sold my ar15 upper because of my tavor and will find something else to do with my RRA lower.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:45:04 PM EDT
[#22]
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you've got your '<' the wrong way around Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AK < Bullpups < AR you've got your '<' the wrong way around This ^ so I FIFMax. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:47:38 PM EDT
[#23]
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Where are you getting $2500 for a bullpup? Tavors are $1600, Augs are $1500, the new M17S is $1800. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Where are you getting $2500 for a bullpup? Tavors are $1600, Augs are $1500, the new M17S is $1800. Even at your prices the point stands, as a non Tier-1 operator do you need a rifle that costs twice as much that does the same job? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:48:10 PM EDT
[#24]
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AUGs are an older design... been around since the 1970s. The issue with the AUG is market saturation. ARs are cheap because everyone makes them. If everyone made an AUG clone they'd be cheap too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. You can buy PSA (largely FNH) and Colt M4s for that price. They have everything a basic Tavor does. Piston doesn't mean anything. Do you complain about the lack of a piston in your pistols? They even tend to come with the Magpul forearm, which works nicely for mounting flash lights.
You don't need to compare it to a top of the shelf precision AR. That being said, ARs are very cheap because they are old designs with a lot of maker competing to lower the price. You won't see this happen with new items, gun or not. Wasn't just a couple years ago there were at least 2 AUG clones on the market? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:52:33 PM EDT
[#25]
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Wasn't just a couple years ago there were at least 2 AUG clones on the market? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. You can buy PSA (largely FNH) and Colt M4s for that price. They have everything a basic Tavor does. Piston doesn't mean anything. Do you complain about the lack of a piston in your pistols? They even tend to come with the Magpul forearm, which works nicely for mounting flash lights.
You don't need to compare it to a top of the shelf precision AR. That being said, ARs are very cheap because they are old designs with a lot of maker competing to lower the price. You won't see this happen with new items, gun or not. Wasn't just a couple years ago there were at least 2 AUG clones on the market? Yes, the MSAR STG-556 and the TPD USA AXR. I believe both are no longer produced, and the MSAR debacle was particularly bad from what I remember. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 4:55:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Evidently some of you can only own one gun at a time...those in that group should indeed most likely stick to just the one AR they have and never consider anything else.
I have AR's AK's FAL's HK's and about 2 dozen other platforms along with PCC's, HG's SG's and belt feds. I don't see the point in limiting yourself to one gun or one platform unless you have some sort of legal restriction. Buy what you want, buy what you like, add a BP if for no other reason than for the fuck of it. I just put a Tavor on layaway at my LGS  . |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:11:02 PM EDT
[#27]
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Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Have you ever bullpup'd bro? Let me guess you use the term "manual at arms" quite often dontcha? Oh yeah, I've bullpup'd. I've owned a couple, shot quite a few and really like the concept, but I've yet to find one that disproves all the statements I made above. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:11:27 PM EDT
[#28]
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Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. Are you twelve? |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:25:53 PM EDT
[#29]
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Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? That's gonna be up to the individual buyer. Of course the same question could be asked about a $2500 Noveske. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:26:27 PM EDT
[#30]
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Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ergonomics suck. The triggers suck. The balance sucks. The mag changes suck. The price sucks. They point like ass. Sounds like you are the type that likes the taste of penis. 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:26:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Because a lefty gun will be harder to sell if I ever had to sell it. I also don't want brass all up in my face.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:27:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: SBR OAL, with a carbine/rifle length barrel...seems like a win win. The stuff that is out there now is awesome, but very pricey. Why hasn't anyone made an "AR priced" bullpup yet? I mostly just want one of these. http://www.onpointsupply.com/images/keltec_rfb_fde_2.jpg or these http://www.iwi.us/iwi/media/products/Tavor-TSFD18.jpg What gun is that top one? Might have to get one of those... |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:37:45 PM EDT
[#33]
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That is the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this website. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AK > Bullpups > AR That is the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this website. I think he could make it worse... HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:41:02 PM EDT
[#34]
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I think he could make it worse... HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AK > Bullpups > AR That is the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this website. I think he could make it worse... HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR I fixed it! Taurus Judge > HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:46:31 PM EDT
[#35]
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Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? I will take a $900 dollar AR. Also to that point, if I had 2500 to spend on a factory rifle right now, I would rather buy a very high end AR versus a bullpup. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:46:37 PM EDT
[#36]
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I fixed it! Taurus Judge > HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AK > Bullpups > AR That is the most disgusting thing I have ever read on this website. I think he could make it worse... HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR I fixed it! Taurus Judge > HD Shotgun > AK > Bullpup > AR 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 5:46:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Horrible triggers
Explosion right under my face Overpriced |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 6:20:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even at your prices the point stands, as a non Tier-1 operator do you need a rifle that costs twice as much that does the same job? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Where are you getting $2500 for a bullpup? Tavors are $1600, Augs are $1500, the new M17S is $1800. Even at your prices the point stands, as a non Tier-1 operator do you need a rifle that costs twice as much that does the same job? I don't need a rifle at all, since I don't hunt, am not in the military, and don't plan on joining any insurgencies any time soon. However, as a tactical mall ninja living in the city, in the one scenario where I am likely to use a rifle, a bullpup will probably serve me better than a regular rifle: confronting hostile individuals in my home. At 26", the OAL of a bullpup allows me to maneuver around my house easier than with an AR. The compact size also means I have better retention for both defensive and offensive situations, if I somehow fail enough that they get into hand-to-hand range. Sure, I can get a SBR'd AR, but by the time I pay for the stamp and trust, I would have spent about the same amount of money and waited months for the paperwork to clear. For all other uses that I put my guns to, any of the perceived disadvantages of the bullpup are a non-issue. I've taken tactical courses and not been at a disadvantage: the trigger on the new K&M M17S (and the aftermarket triggers for the Tavor) is as good as the trigger on a decent AR, it weighs about the same, I can change mags pretty quickly, and the shell deflector lets me shoot left handed if I need to. Accuracy and control are outstanding, ergos are better than an AR (for me, YMMV), fatigue is less since most of the weight is carried by your shoulder and not your arms, and the compact size is just as useful on a course as it is inside a house. The way I see it, the advantages of an AR are: 1) adjustable LOP 2) fast mag changes as opposed to bullpups: 1) compact size 2) better handling All the other stuff is pretty much a wash. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:16:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Since the Tavor hit the market bullpups have become more popular but the cost is a deterrent for many. AR's are available in every shape , size & color and can be had for a lot less and works well for most people.
I put the Tavor in the same class as the FN PS90 but in a normal caliber and a hell of a lot more practical for ammo availability, mags , etc. Bullpups shine for use in tight space and compact OAL. SBR length with carbine ballistics in a non NFA package. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:23:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To me it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. In close quarters a handgun works. Any longer and an m4gery works. I don't understand the appeal. It's nice to have choices though. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No real performance advantage over already proven systems. To me it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. In close quarters a handgun works. Any longer and an m4gery works. I don't understand the appeal. It's nice to have choices though. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Bullpup trade a lot of negatives for one positive. The positive which is a longer barrel in a short package isn't needed IMO. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:25:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was in a carbine class this summer and one guy was running an AUG. He was slower on everything and did not perform well at all compared to the AR's in class. The 2nd day he brought his AR and shot that all day. LOL And being serious for a moment, that does raise a point. Let's look at the oft-cited allied nations that have a bullpup as general issue, but a their special operation types use M4s. The bullpup's are mostly given to guys who have other shit to do, but need a rifle around. The M4 is given to high speed types doing their high speed thing. Me, I'm just a guy. I have shit to do, and sometimes it's handy to have a rifle around while doing it. I'm not doing any close quarters direct action. How a rifle handles getting in and out of a vehicle or walking around the woods has more of an influence on me than how they perform in a combat oriented class or for the guys in SAD. For a home defense carbine, sure - but that's not the only reason people buy firearms. Interesting point, one I had not thought about. But as a non-tier 1 operator do you need a $2500 bullpup, or will a $900 16" AR with a telestock do the same job? Here's another interesting point: Your argument appeals to the economy of price:performance of long arms yet curiously you appear to be an advocate of the 6.8 SPC round. Perhaps you could give us an even more interesting answer on how many dollars it would take to load up all the AR magazines you own with expendable 6.8 SPC ammunition. 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:30:59 PM EDT
[#42]
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so basically what you're saying is that ARs take a big steaming shit on bullpups Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The half-assed responses in this thread are amazing. One of the earlier posters summarized bullpup shortcomings as follows 1) Seriously silly pricing My response---perhaps silly pricing compared to a run-of-the-mill AR series, but compare the pricing to some of the other more esoteric autoloaders like a SCAR. The pricing isn't so out of line. 2) Slow magazine changes Yeah, when compared to an AR design. Compared to almost any OTHER autoloader, they are on par. Show me a fast mag change on an AK, please. 3) Can't change stock length (for armor or body size) True, but I don't wear body armor, since I am not a Tier One "Operator" (which is the case for 90% of the guys on this forum ) Then again, fixed stock AR series don' t have adjustable length of pull either, and nobody complains about those.
4) A trigger that belongs on a stapler not a rifle Compared to an AR, perhaps. But compare it to say, a G3. Now tell me which one has a worse trigger. (Factory G3 triggers came in at OVER 10 lbs by Bundeswehr specification!) 5) as pointed out a lack of replacement parts. Yeah, and spare parts for a SCAR are common as dirt.
6) ergonomics usually not up to snuff Measuring ergos against the AR series will make ANY other rifle be in second place, since the AR is probably the most ergonomic rifle in history. I will grant you that. But the ergos of the newer bullpups are not horrible, and certainly are no worse than an AK.... 7) Generally can't switch shoulders at will w/o getting brass in the face. This I will grant you. Thankfully, I am right handed.
so basically what you're saying is that ARs take a big steaming shit on bullpups That's one way to interpret my response. 
Another way to interpret it is this: compared to MANY autoloading military type firearms, the newer bullpups (AUG and Tavor) are AT LEAST EQUAL in many respects, and in some ways, are superior. Everything has a tradeoff. I just depends on what you value most. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:36:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My response---perhaps silly pricing compared to a run-of-the-mill AR series, but compare the pricing to some of the other more esoteric autoloaders like a SCAR. The pricing isn't so out of line. While pricing might be in line with the SCAR - capabilities aren't. You lose the ability to shorten the stock and adjust comb height, lose the free floated barrel, you lose the ergonomics, and you lose the fast magazine changes,. Yeah, when compared to an AR design. Compared to almost any OTHER autoloader, they are on par. Show me a fast mag change on an AK, please. I'd note the SCAR (you mentioned earlier) is just as fast an an AR . Why would going backward in capability be a good thing? I'd also ask why you took the AK out of the garbage can - put it back. I'd be more likely to grab a bullpup than an AK.
True, but I don't wear body armor, since I am not a Tier One "Operator" (which is the case for 90% of the guys on this forum ) Then again, fixed stock AR series don' t have adjustable length of pull either, and nobody complains about those.
Several things wrong with this comment 1) The OP asked why bullpups have not caught on as much. Body Armor usage has gone up in militaries - the fact the rifle doesn't work well with armor is a reason why they haven't caught on. 2) Wearing bulky clothes (like winter jackets) is similar and the need for a stock adjustment is there. Some of us shoot all year round outside. 3) Stock length needs change with shooting position. I don't do all my shooting from a bench YMMV 4) Different people need different lengths. For example when I let my son shoot my rifles he needs a different stock length. Compared to an AR, perhaps. But compare it to say, a G3. Now tell me which one has a worse trigger. (Factory G3 triggers came in at OVER 10 lbs by Bundeswehr specification!) Weight =/= as crispness or creep. I can shoot a heavy trigger so long as it's consistent and not spongy. But then I'd say again - why is going backwards (worse trigger) a good thing? That's just another compromise that reduces effectiveness. Yeah, and spare parts for a SCAR are common as dirt.
Is the SCAR a popular weapon? Like the Bullpup they are a niche item - hence the lack of one in my collection. But if I really needed them there are parts suppliers for the SCAR, can't say that about the FN2000. Measuring ergos against the AR series will make ANY other rifle be in second place, since the AR is probably the most ergonomic rifle in history. Except maybe the ACR or SCAR...
But the ergos of the newer bullpups are not horrible, and certainly are no worse than an AK.... Damning by faint praise. AK ergonomics are a Charlie Foxtrot at best. Heck I think the M1 Carbine has better ergonomics than the AK. Again why are you looking to give up the improvements we have over earlier rifles? Once again another poster uses the AR series rifle as his ONLY comparison measure against bullpups. And again, he missed my point. I never said that bullpups are the answer to all rifle problems. I only pointed out that the supposed "shortcomings" of bullpups are not shortcomings when compared to the ENTIRE FIELD of modern military type self-loaders. If you confine your measurement to the M4, all current bullpups fall short in most ways. If you measure the current bullpups (AUG and Tavor) against the whole range of other military type autoloaders, they certainly DO NOT fall anywhere NEAR the back of the pack. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:40:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AUGs are an older design... been around since the 1970s. The issue with the AUG is market saturation. ARs are cheap because everyone makes them. If everyone made an AUG clone they'd be cheap too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Show me an AR that is branded (store bought) that has CHF barrel, piston driven, and all the upgraded hardware and parts quality as the Tavor for $700-900. You can't. You can buy PSA (largely FNH) and Colt M4s for that price. They have everything a basic Tavor does. Piston doesn't mean anything. Do you complain about the lack of a piston in your pistols? They even tend to come with the Magpul forearm, which works nicely for mounting flash lights. You don't need to compare it to a top of the shelf precision AR. That being said, ARs are very cheap because they are old designs with a lot of maker competing to lower the price. You won't see this happen with new items, gun or not. AR15 was first made in the early 1960. First bullpup design was created in 1901. It was a market failure back then as it is now. A niche market at best. |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 7:58:38 PM EDT
[#45]
This thread has shown me that Bullpups are a complete waste of time and are 100% useless.
 Actually, no... they are fucking awesome and I love mine! My PS90 is a great PDW and can shouldered in my truck's cab. It is a great tool for "Oh damn, possible riots can break out any moment due to XXXX Event." With the 5.11 bag I keep it in I have fifty rounds on tap and another 100 in reserve. My MSAR AUG is a great general purpose rifle. Light, well balanced, compact, and runs like a top. My KSG is a great HD gun. I have right now eight rounds of 00 buck ready and seven 1oz slug on tap with the flick of a switch. The AUG and KSG are 26 inches and the PS90 is 20 inches. My 11.5 inch AR is a great rifle but my AUG is a better all around rifle for GP work.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 8:06:48 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thread title: Why aren't bullpups more popular? In your first post: That's why they're not more popular. Thread solved, next question. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thread title: Why aren't bullpups more popular? In your first post: Quoted:
Why hasn't anyone made an "AR priced" bullpup yet? That's why they're not more popular. Thread solved, next question. 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 8:34:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Price and they don't do anything all that better. That's the two big reasons I don't own one.......yet.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 8:37:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread has shown me that Bullpups are a complete waste of time and are 100% useless. http://i.imgur.com/eKoH0eJ.jpg Actually, no... they are fucking awesome and I love mine! My PS90 is a great PDW and can shouldered in my truck's cab. It is a great tool for "Oh damn, possible riots can break out any moment due to XXXX Event." With the 5.11 bag I keep it in I have fifty rounds on tap and another 100 in reserve. My MSAR AUG is a great general purpose rifle. Light, well balanced, compact, and runs like a top. My KSG is a great HD gun. I have right now eight rounds of 00 buck ready and seven 1oz slug on tap with the flick of a switch. The AUG and KSG are 26 inches and the PS90 is 20 inches. My 11.5 inch AR is a great rifle but my AUG is a better all around rifle for GP work. You win. 
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Posted: 11/13/2014 8:37:43 PM EDT
[#49]
I tell you listen.
Great comrades of Norinco making best bullpup. Quality most excellently made and rifle cheap of costing 1000 Canadian rubles. This is about 887 American fleabacks. Cannnot go wrong and for you not believing, read this review. Read for you and DBAS. http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/Blog/September-2013/Eyeing-Up-The-Norinco-Type-97.aspx |
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Posted: 11/13/2014 8:42:20 PM EDT
[#50]
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I tell you listen. Great comrades of Norinco making best bullpup. Quality most excellently made and rifle cheap of costing 1000 Canadian rubles. This is about 887 American fleabacks. Cannnot go wrong and for you not believing, read this review. Read for you and DBAS. http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/Blog/September-2013/Eyeing-Up-The-Norinco-Type-97.aspx Gloating is not of need, comrade. 
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