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Okay, open challenge: We need a live-fire video of the 15-MOA effect in a non free-float gun. Maybe 5-shot groups at 100 yards shot rested with no pressure on the forearm or barrel vs groups shot to the same POA with the gun slung, rested against the forearm, rested against the barrel, maybe even one with some sort of constant extreme force exerted on the barrel. View Quote I've gotten around 6 or 7 MOA shift on an old pencil barrel A1 when I had it resting on the end of the barrel and I was really laid into it like it was a MG. But I can't see more than 3 or 4 MOA shift on an M4 through the RAS, it just isn't possible unless you've got Hulk-fuckin-Hogan doing pull-ups off the damn thing. Maybe a bit more, if you've applying torque from both the bottom and the side at the same time. Even then, running on adrenaline, it wouldn't be difficult to wing it with Kentucky windage and walk your rounds on target. Still, we could use an M4A2... FF rail or 6940 upper, LMT BCG, Geissele trigger, Norgon ambi-catch, the works. Only thing is, it might not be worth the cost when the LSAT is so close to being completed, since upgrading to a carbine running CT ammo would be a significant step up. |
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Well, it's true. We gravely need a PiP of the M4A1, otherwise we will be sorely outclassed should we face any modern nation. Free float barrels are incredibly important in this day and age, and we hamstring ourselves by employing the KAC RAS against any other modern military. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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![]() ![]() ![]() Well, it's true. We gravely need a PiP of the M4A1, otherwise we will be sorely outclassed should we face any modern nation. Free float barrels are incredibly important in this day and age, and we hamstring ourselves by employing the KAC RAS against any other modern military. More to accuracy than a free floating barrel. Sure it helps but I don't think it will matter in most instances, especially for standard issue infantry with standard issue ammo. And I doubt the AK-12, even if more accurate than a regular AK-74, is up to par with an AR-15 accuracy wise. |
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I know I'm possibly making myself a target by not completely piling on after seeing the otherwise unanimous response to this thread, but regardless of the merit of a FF on a military issue rifle, I can confirm that I measured a 9MOA shift with my AR last week by resting the muzzle end of the barrel against a barricade. I run a 12" FF rail and usually can get part of the rail against a barricade for stabilization (when allowed) when shooting smaller targets in 3gun matches. At a recent match I was missing some of the 1-2MOA targets from a new-to-me barricade where I only had the option of resting the barrel on the barricade due to my setup (I usually don't miss so knew it had to be the gun ![]() The easiest solution in my case is to remove my fore grip if I go back to that range so I can push the rifle farther forward when leaning over that barricade so I can get the FF rail to the support point on the barricade. I'll just have to practice firing that rifle without the fore grip as I've gotten used to it being there. So, I'm not addressing the rest of the OP's talking points, but I will support that a sizable POI shift can occur from resting the barrel for support. Realize that resting on the muzzle end can more than double the moment arm from what a sling can or what resting a non-FF fore end can, so the resulting POI shift will be correspondingly larger. Get into the cantilevering of the barrel and the often smaller cross section of the forward part of the barrel and my test configuration is a worst case condition, but it does support the statement that large POI shifts can occur when imparting normal forces on the barrel. View Quote TL;DR, you placed leverage on the END of the barrel |
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The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. View Quote Russia isn't a first world country. |
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Here are some recent pictures from Modern Firearms, which is a great website for Russian guns (and other guns, for that matter). AK-12 2016 version: http://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/assault/rus/1473444610.jpg There just isn't much here that hasn't been common in US civilian AKs for years. Free-float rail, railed dust-cover, better grip and stock. The better gas system might be good, and it looks like it might be adjustable which is nice. But it's a fairly minor improvement and probably not worth the effort to replace the AK-74. The most recent AEK picture I could find, from the 2014 trials: http://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/assault/rus/1416852320.jpg The stock, grip, and sights have clear HK influence (not a bad thing for its purpose). The balanced recoil system is one of the few actual innovations in firearms in recent years, if it actually works. So far the tests I've seen look very promising. The question will be if the Russians actually issue them in real quantities. I see nothing here that outclasses the M4. They are both heavier by a couple pounds. Only the AEK shows any chance of being a significant improvement over what it replaces, and I don't recall many HSLD units around the world adopting AKs of any sort over the M4 when given the chance. View Quote I was going to say that is not an AK-12, but it looks like they have indeed canned the original AK-12 and replaced it with a more traditional AK. The original AK-12 had a different selector style, slanted receiver like the Galil and an entirely different top cover and side ejection port system. That looked much better as there was no big slit through the side when the weapon is off of safe. The "new" AK-12 is more or less a regular AK with rails and stuff. Very odd they would can what was likely the better rifle with some improvements baked into the core design. Original AK-12: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "New" AK-12: ![]() What appears to be the "new" AK-12, or just an AK-74M with the same stock, captured off of a Russian adviser in Syria: ![]() Wonder why they just said "screw it" and went with the old AKs with some bolt on rails and an M4 looking stock. I suppose they were not happy with the AK-12 and are waiting for a more modern design (ACR/SCAR/BREN 806 style) and will just upgrade their current inventory of AK-74s to the new "AK-12" while they wait. Shame this thread quickly devolved into a "M4s have 15 MOA at 100 meters" gibberish thread. |
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So....if it's virtually impossible to hit a target at 100m with an M4 (due to its non floated barrel), how did I (and everyone else) hit the 300m targets during BCT so easily?
Marines hit at 500 if I'm not mistaken, which should be impossible according to this. |
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So....if it's virtually impossible to hit a target at 100m with an M4 (due to its non floated barrel), how did I (and everyone else) hit the 300m targets during BCT so easily? Marines hit at 500 if I'm not mistaken, which should be impossible according to this. View Quote Under ideal conditions and minimal loading of force on the handguard you should see minimal deflection. It's when you sandbag it with a load or sling it up tight that you should see significant deflection of point of aim. |
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Under ideal conditions and minimal loading of force on the handguard you should see minimal deflection. It's when you sandbag it with a load or sling it up tight that you should see significant deflection of point of aim. View Quote It's a moot issue. If you do it right, you put the sandbags under the rifle and not on top of it. And nobody will sling up tight in combat, you can't get out of it fast enough. |
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The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. View Quote |
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How the hell can you say its FF when it is a piston gun and has the front sight base/piston assy attached to the fucking barrel
![]() and even then, ruskie ammo still sucks ass, so unless they go and change out every round to new rounds made just for these rifles nothing will change all they are doing is stuffing the same shit into a different bag ![]() Good lord the stupidity in this thread is amazing But then again, I forgot a whole bunch of schools are closed due to the snow storm and kids need something to do |
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What's that last one, I'm not familiar? ![]() View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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How far behind are we. What is out there to improve on the M4? 6.5 Grendel 6.8 SPC II 6.5 Creedmoore ![]() Chinese knockoff Creedmore. Nick |
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So....if it's virtually impossible to hit a target at 100m with an M4 (due to its non floated barrel), how did I (and everyone else) hit the 300m targets during BCT so easily? Marines hit at 500 if I'm not mistaken, which should be impossible according to this. View Quote Nobody anywhere in the history of warfare has hit anything past 100 yards without a free float barrel without dumb luck. That's why we wasted thousands of rounds in Vietnam for each enemy KIA. Also, that is why Muslims yell "Allah Akbar!" when shooting without using the sights, because they are totes useless without a free float barrel. |
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Under ideal conditions and minimal loading of force on the handguard you should see minimal deflection. It's when you sandbag it with a load or sling it up tight that you should see significant deflection of point of aim. View Quote Did you know that barrel flex can also be caused even in a FF, smart guy? ![]() AR-15 Fluted Barrel Flex Slow Motion Vibrations High-Speed Camera 2 Aimed Research |
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Lol OP thinks rifles and carbines do the killing.
Combined arms kills people and no one does that as well as we do. |
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The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. View Quote Lol |
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I guess our troops will just have to call in some MLRS arty and watch them take out a whole square kilometer of enemy troops since they cant hit anything if they touch their rifle with the support hand in any way.
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thanks @AR-180 what shift would you expect shooting the same setup with an AIMPOINT or ACOG on the receiver? (honest question) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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@AR-180 Shooting irons, correct? Yes. @AR-180 what shift would you expect shooting the same setup with an AIMPOINT or ACOG on the receiver? (honest question) This is an interesting question... Im not sure, but I would assume greater, since the point of flex lets say whole barrel, would also effect the front iron(though disproportionately ),so irons group would be "less" effected by the flex since they somewhat compensate, but im just guessing... intersteing test. someone locate @Oldpainless |
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This is an interesting question... Im not sure, but I would assume greater, since the point of flex lets say whole barrel, would also effect the front iron(though disproportionately ),so irons group would be "less" effected by the flex since they somewhat compensate, but im just guessing... intersteing test. someone locate @Oldpainless View Quote Barrel mounted irons flex with the barrel and maintain point of aim. The issue is when you use receiver mounted optics and then put pressure on a non FF handguard. That's when you see the significant shift in point of aim and point of impact. |
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Lol OP thinks rifles and carbines do the killing. Combined arms kills people and no one does that as well as we do. View Quote Exactly. In the scheme of things our small arms choice doesn't matter for dick. We could issue everyone M1 carbines and battlefield results would be largely unchanged from what they are now. I guess because this is a gun forum, many here overstate the importance of small arms differences, when in reality they are largely unimportant minutiae. |
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thanks @AR-180 what shift would you expect shooting the same setup with an AIMPOINT or ACOG on the receiver? (honest question) View Quote If the height above bore is the same, I'd expect the same. However, it isn't. Furthermore, as you bend the barrel, the front sight is lower. So, you aim higher offsetting some of the true deflection. Both of these cause you to miss lower than point of aim. They'd compound over distance I'd expect. But, I'd test to be sure. Then, I'd know how to compensate. |
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The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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How far behind are we. What is out there to improve on the M4? The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. Have you ever seen combat? |
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Can we get a civilian version? I just bought a new Rubber maid trash can.................I'd buy one
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I believe it has also been stated by a few members here with tanks next to their names that the KAC RAS has a propensity to lose the bottom rail easily.
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The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I guess I better throw my M16A4 w/ RCO-ACOG and knights RAS rail in the garbage then. I mean, I hit 400m silhouettes all day long with it, but according to what you read on the internet there should be a 15moa shift due to my inferior weapon design. It was also the same rifle I had when I was in the Army and deployed to Iraq. The 15moa shift must have slipped my memory, and I must have forgotten about all those misses at 100m. You base all of this on something you read on the internet? Seriously man... The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. Then why aren't they missing every time? |
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Also here's a few links discussing it that I found in Google.
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/ar-free-float-rails-and-impact-shift |
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Under ideal conditions and minimal loading of force on the handguard you should see minimal deflection. It's when you sandbag it with a load or sling it up tight that you should see significant deflection of point of aim. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So....if it's virtually impossible to hit a target at 100m with an M4 (due to its non floated barrel), how did I (and everyone else) hit the 300m targets during BCT so easily? Marines hit at 500 if I'm not mistaken, which should be impossible according to this. Under ideal conditions and minimal loading of force on the handguard you should see minimal deflection. It's when you sandbag it with a load or sling it up tight that you should see significant deflection of point of aim. When are you going to be loading sandbags on top of the rifle, or slinging it up tight in combat? That seems like range conditions, which would be ideal conditions. If they have time to get into those conditions, why couldn't they just replicate the conditions in which they're hitting targets at 500 meters? |
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No, just so we don't experience up to 15MOA in shift when using our rifles....You know, so soldiers can actually hit what they aim at. View Quote You do know that they don't hit shit as it is. It takes something like 250,000 rounds of ammo to kill one bad guy. Infantry tactics is spray and pray. When you are getting shot back at, you aren't taking time to aim. You are sending lead down range hoping it hits someone. It's purely a means of keeping enemies pinned down until air support shows up. |
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When are you going to be loading sandbags on top of the rifle, or slinging it up tight in combat? That seems like range conditions, which would be ideal conditions. If they have time to get into those conditions, why couldn't they just replicate the conditions in which they're hitting targets at 500 meters? View Quote You can force the shift by pulling a VFG tight into your shoulder or using a barricade. Read my link. |
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You do know that they don't hit shit as it is. It takes something like 250,000 rounds of ammo to kill one bad guy. Infantry tactics is spray and pray. When you are getting shot back at, you aren't taking time to aim. You are sending lead down range hoping it hits someone. It's purely a means of keeping enemies pinned down until air support shows up. View Quote Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. |
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You can force the shift by pulling a VFG tight into your shoulder or using a barricade. Read my link. View Quote your support hand should not be doing that (shooting 101) resting the forearm on a barricade will not shift POI. Resting any bare barrel (even free floated) on a barricade will shift POI due to change in harmonics |
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Barrel mounted irons flex with the barrel and maintain point of aim. The issue is when you use receiver mounted optics and then put pressure on a non FF handguard. That's when you see the significant shift in point of aim and point of impact. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This is an interesting question... Im not sure, but I would assume greater, since the point of flex lets say whole barrel, would also effect the front iron(though disproportionately ),so irons group would be "less" effected by the flex since they somewhat compensate, but im just guessing... intersteing test. someone locate @Oldpainless Barrel mounted irons flex with the barrel and maintain point of aim. The issue is when you use receiver mounted optics and then put pressure on a non FF handguard. That's when you see the significant shift in point of aim and point of impact. You obviously don't have nearly as much knowledge about what you're talking about as you're trying to project that you do (sort of like your post about how the IAR was a wonder gun with untouchable mean stoppage #'s). See AR-180's post on this subject. |
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Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. View Quote You must be joking. You just have to be. |
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You must be joking. You just have to be. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. You must be joking. You just have to be. |
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Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You do know that they don't hit shit as it is. It takes something like 250,000 rounds of ammo to kill one bad guy. Infantry tactics is spray and pray. When you are getting shot back at, you aren't taking time to aim. You are sending lead down range hoping it hits someone. It's purely a means of keeping enemies pinned down until air support shows up. Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. Maybe you should stop posting bullshit. |
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You can force the shift by pulling a VFG tight into your shoulder or using a barricade. Read my link. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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When are you going to be loading sandbags on top of the rifle, or slinging it up tight in combat? That seems like range conditions, which would be ideal conditions. If they have time to get into those conditions, why couldn't they just replicate the conditions in which they're hitting targets at 500 meters? You can force the shift by pulling a VFG tight into your shoulder or using a barricade. Read my link. Then why are we able to hit targets out at 500 meters? |
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You must be joking. You just have to be. View Quote How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. |
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How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. View Quote Want to bet? I'm sure there are plenty of members here in TX who would love to take your money. Hell for the right amount I'll fly down to TX. |
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Looks like the AK-12 will go to the general army soldiers while Spetznas will be getting the AEK-971. Russia set to adopt both AK-12 and AEK-971. Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. This means Russia will now have a general issue rifle capable of far better accuracy and consistancy than our M4A1s, that can see up to 5MOA in point of aim and point of impact shift by sling, barricade, or foregrip pressure when exerted on the non free floated KAC RAS. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. The US at this point needs a M4A1+ program more than ever now. View Quote I'd take an M4 into a gunfight over any other individual small arm. |
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How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. View Quote Setting aside that people hit shit at distance literally all the fucking time with non-FF M4/AR15s (myself included), your assertion that the reason our ammo expended per enemy casualty is so high is because we don't use free-floated rifles is fucking laughable. Yes, POI shift is a thing. No, it is not nearly as big a deal as you have led yourself to believe. |
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Want to bet? I'm sure there are plenty of members here in TX who would love to take your money. Hell for the right amount I'll fly down to TX. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. Want to bet? I'm sure there are plenty of members here in TX who would love to take your money. Hell for the right amount I'll fly down to TX. There are plenty of people with ACOGs on 10.5" MK18 Mod 0s that can make a 100 yd shot on a standard sillouhette, all day long. |
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Looks like the AK-12 will go to the general army soldiers while Spetznas will be getting the AEK-971. Russia set to adopt both AK-12 and AEK-971. Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. This means Russia will now have a general issue rifle capable of far better accuracy and consistancy than our M4A1s, that can see up to 5MOA in point of aim and point of impact shift by sling, barricade, or foregrip pressure when exerted on the non free floated KAC RAS. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. The US at this point needs a M4A1+ program more than ever now. View Quote ![]() |
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How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. View Quote ![]() |
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Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You do know that they don't hit shit as it is. It takes something like 250,000 rounds of ammo to kill one bad guy. Infantry tactics is spray and pray. When you are getting shot back at, you aren't taking time to aim. You are sending lead down range hoping it hits someone. It's purely a means of keeping enemies pinned down until air support shows up. Hmmm Maybe that has to do with the wide spread usage of receiver mounted optics and everyone being issued a non free floated rail. When you can cause a point shift of 5-15moa by putting tension on the KAC RAS it's no wonder soldiers can't hit anything. ![]() Maybe it's because we train our troops to pin enemies in place with suppressing fire and move other elements to get better angles (or call in arty or CAS to deal with baddies)? Nah, that makes too much sense (plus, what the fuck would the actual "been there, done that" guys know about "that"?). |
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How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You must be joking. You just have to be. How so? Sure PID is improved with modern optics, but POI shift is very real. Let's say you pull the M4 tight into your shoulder, you line the ACOG up to the target....There is a huge chance you won't hit him if he is at 100M or beyond. Because the KAC RAS will force pressure on the barrel and change the point of impact to something different from your ACOG. haha wat |
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Also here's a few links discussing it that I found in Google. http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/ar-free-float-rails-and-impact-shift View Quote Fewest links I've ever seen. |
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