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Posted: 12/30/2019 3:41:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really don't understand what demographic this is aimed at. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 3:41:35 PM EDT
[#2]
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 3:46:53 PM EDT
[#3]
I think I'll be adding one of these when available.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 3:50:25 PM EDT
[#4]
I like it
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Posted: 12/30/2019 3:54:11 PM EDT
[#5]
The styling looks Kel-tec-ish.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:13:38 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes I read that. Will they be actual handguns or some type of shortened rifle platform with arm brace? "Real" handguns like the Ruger might sell well enough to spur some additional stuff. I have my doubts that another AR pistol or two will do anything. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:17:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone pointed out velocity isn't the only factor in "rifle like wounding" I have a strong suspicion frontal area of the projectile matters too. Larger area probably can achieve the effect at a lower velocity. Which would explain why some think 1800fps, some thinker a few hundred higher. .224 62gr @ 1700fps = 398 ft/lbs .308 147gr @ 1700fps = 943 ft/lbs 0.72 438gr @ 1600fps = 2490 ft/lbs I'm increasingly less inclined to believe that 'velocity' by itself is what is producing 'rifle like' wounding. I think more likely is that we associate see 'rifle like' wounding with high velocity projectiles because the vast majority of high velocity projectiles also display high energy, and also display rapid energy transfer. High energy + high energy transfer produces a large enough pressure curve to induce tearing. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:36:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case. https://i.imgur.com/wYRa9Wo.png  
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:48:45 PM EDT
[#9]
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun.
that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:52:18 PM EDT
[#10]
I wonder if the nickel plated cases are meant to get around the need for a case lube?
Regardless, for the reloader nickel cases have their own issues. With heavy use the necks can flake and crack. I doubt it would take long to get to that point if they blow out like the FN loads do. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 4:59:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Excel Accelerator, available chambered for 5.7 X 28.
http://www.excelarms.com/handguns/acceleratorpistol.html My .22 Magnum cost me just over $400 including transfer. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/837796026 Kentucky Gun Company had the best price when I was looking earlier this year. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:01:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Excel Accelerator https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/348/427_DSC_0016-1214325.jpg My .22 Magnum cost me just over $400 including transfer. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:03:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I came here to post this vid. watch it again. Pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles, 2200 FPS is the barrier does 5.7 truly give rifle performance in a pistol platform? And Ruger makes one for $500? That could change the game You're talking low-end rifle performance in a portable and concealable firearm. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:05:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And it’s still a rimfire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Excel Accelerator https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/348/427_DSC_0016-1214325.jpg My .22 Magnum cost me just over $400 including transfer. I wouldn't have posted the link unless it was relevant. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:08:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Available in 5.7 X 28. I wouldn't have posted the link unless it was relevant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Excel Accelerator https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/348/427_DSC_0016-1214325.jpg My .22 Magnum cost me just over $400 including transfer. I wouldn't have posted the link unless it was relevant. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:12:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case. https://i.imgur.com/wYRa9Wo.png |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:17:27 PM EDT
[#17]
2nd source of confirmation for the 5.7x28 Gold Dot:
https://www.bangersusa.com/product-detail/942740/gold-dot5-7x28mm40-graingold-dot-hollow-point50rd-box Major question will be if they are loading it to the purposefully underloaded FN level (40gr @ 1750fps) or the Elite/Vaguard / SAAMI pressure level (40gr @ 1950fps). |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:20:00 PM EDT
[#18]
I guess a PCC in 5.7 will be a thing.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:25:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Cool a 5.7 with a normal safety I could be in for one of these
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:35:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want 9 rounds. It is like the MPA offerings, it tries but misses the mark. I have some of the Speer 5.7 ammo coming. I am very curious about the Nickel brass. Is it nickel coating only? Or did they nickel coat, then coat with the polymer coating? The polymer coating was (from my understanding) used to cause the case to stick in the chamber longer during firing. It's certainly not as "slick" as nickel is. Then who is nickel coating the brass. FN was the sole producer or brass. Fiocchi gets barrels of it and loads SS197SR and American Eagle. There are Rumors Fiocchi ended that contract, so who's loading US made 5.7 now? Elite Ammunition invested in a place to make 5.7 brass, but then stopped offering it because at the time volumes were not there (Pre CMMG Banshee). Did Speer/ATK/Whoever buy up that investment of machines and is now cranking out brass? Now comes my concern. This caliber shines in 28-40gr bullets that are LONG and pointy. 28-34gr bullets keep that velocity over 2200 fps, and do what the makers intended it to do. Bullet designs like typical pistol rounds, that are in the 40gr area will keep the velocity low, and inhibit it's ability to penetrate soft armor. I guess for the masses that may not be a bad thing, and if FN isn't supplying the brass, that means more availability potential for being able to purchase new unfired brass as well. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:43:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Hope it’s true and other ammo companies adopt it. Would make my fiveseven and ps90 cheaper to shoot since it’s one of the few calibers I don’t load for.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:44:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have some of the Speer 5.7 ammo coming. I am very curious about the Nickel brass. Is it nickel coating only? Or did they nickel coat, then coat with the polymer coating? The polymer coating was (from my understanding) used to cause the case to stick in the chamber longer during firing. It's certainly not as "slick" as nickel is. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:50:02 PM EDT
[#23]
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tdLK2pOsp/?igshid=wty1huepx4fz
Someone make this hot if it’s not already. Thanks. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:51:15 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm excited if for no reason than more ammo options likely being available.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:53:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tdLK2pOsp/?igshid=wty1huepx4fz Someone make this hot if it’s not already. Thanks. 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:53:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's Speer saying for an availability date? |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:53:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:54:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great find! And now we know, its real, it holds 20rds, and it's glorious. https://i.ibb.co/ZxWcrTF/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-1-51-12-PM.png 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:54:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have no contact with them. I can try, but most big companies never respond to me. I am contact with TargetsportsUSa right now.. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:57:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be a commercial success a firearm needs to be one or the other (or both):
Right now the 5.7 really has neither of these things. A Gold Dot load would change things significantly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Nice. According to that blog there are rumors of three other firearm manufactures developing 5.7 pistols. Then there's the part about a Speer Gold Dot self defense round coming out next year as well. Blog: Will 2020 be a breakout year for the 5.7x28mm?
Right now the 5.7 really has neither of these things. A Gold Dot load would change things significantly. FN really screwed themselves through a failure to market. There's far more Fudd lore & outdated info than current information, and due entirely to a lack of marketing & education. They just sat back & collected dollars, doing almost no development on the PS90 or five-seven (ooh, different color plastic!) for nearly two decades now. In the meantime, ammo prices are 2/3 lower, availability is stable, multiple ammo suppliers, a plethora of options (boutique & not) and more than enough examples of it stopping threats & killing game & being tested to illustrate exactly what it can & cannot do. But nope, we still get the same early-00s talking points like clockwork, at a time when no one remembers 5.56 being "too weak" or AR15s being unreliable. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 5:58:57 PM EDT
[#31]
If they make a carbine I will be buying one. I haven't sprung for a p90 because of cost. If they could make one that retails for $6-700 and is as reliable as a ps90 I'll buy one asap.
It would seem odd to me to make the pistol and not a carbine. The P90 is a legit subgun, but the 5.7 to me is kinda goofy, it really is just a cartridge matching sidearm. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:00:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it could be reloaded without worrying about FN’s secret sauce case lube you could at least get some business that way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If ammo weren't proprietary and were less than 20 cpr... heck yeah! |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:00:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First to say, "It should have used FN mags!" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Great find! And now we know, its real, it holds 20rds, and it's glorious. https://i.ibb.co/ZxWcrTF/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-1-51-12-PM.png On the flipside, using metal magazines will somewhat reduce the grip circumference, which the FsN could definitely benefit from. The biggest problem I foresee is that this will cause a rift in the PDW market. Currently the MPA 5.7 and CMMG uses FN FsN mags. Will future 5.7 PDW's /PCC's use FsN mags, or Ruger mags? |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:01:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tdLK2pOsp/?igshid=wty1huepx4fz Someone make this hot if it’s not already. Thanks. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:03:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case. https://i.imgur.com/wYRa9Wo.png  Nickel plated cases are fruity. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:08:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Great find! And now we know, its real, it holds 20rds, and it's glorious. https://i.ibb.co/ZxWcrTF/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-1-51-12-PM.png Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tdLK2pOsp/?igshid=wty1huepx4fz Someone make this hot if it’s not already. Thanks. https://i.ibb.co/ZxWcrTF/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-1-51-12-PM.png |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:09:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:10:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First to say, "It should have used FN mags!" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Great find! And now we know, its real, it holds 20rds, and it's glorious. https://i.ibb.co/ZxWcrTF/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-1-51-12-PM.png |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:12:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol yes, as a FsN owner myself, that is a bummer that it doesn't. On the flipside, using metal magazines will somewhat reduce the grip circumference, which the FsN could definitely benefit from. The biggest problem I foresee is that this will cause a rift in the PDW market. Currently the MPA 5.7 and CMMG uses FN FsN mags. Will future 5.7 PDW's /PCC's use FsN mags, or Ruger mags? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Great find! And now we know, its real, it holds 20rds, and it's glorious. https://i.ibb.co/ZxWcrTF/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-1-51-12-PM.png On the flipside, using metal magazines will somewhat reduce the grip circumference, which the FsN could definitely benefit from. The biggest problem I foresee is that this will cause a rift in the PDW market. Currently the MPA 5.7 and CMMG uses FN FsN mags. Will future 5.7 PDW's /PCC's use FsN mags, or Ruger mags? 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:13:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is it 2200? I always thought "2000" was that theoretical limit, and some have argued that even down to 1700? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I came here to post this vid. watch it again. Pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles, 2200 FPS is the barrier does 5.7 truly five rifle performance in a pistol platform? And Ruger makes one for $500? That could change the game |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:17:06 PM EDT
[#41]
More pics and info here.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tVXIsp4mW/?igshid=9e7z2reea22c https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tVR9np4yu/?igshid=1n9zc2tnogs60 |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:18:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1700fps is the original number, and one I use. .30 Carbine produces rifle like effects using JSP's at 1850fps: "With expanding projectiles, the .30 caliber M1 Carbine creates a temporary cavity stretch that is slightly larger than that produced by heavy expanding .357 Magnum hunting loads and may be able to produce permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture injuries in tissues susceptible to stretch insults, such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder. The best ammunition choices for the M1 Carbine are the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR), Hornady 110 gr FTX, and loads using all copper Barnes X bullet 110 gr JHP (like the old Corbon DPX), and the outstanding Speer 110 gr Gold Dot (which sadly is no longer being made). The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor." https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-4339.html 2200fps is far too high; by that standard 7.62x39 is only a 'rifle' for like 50-60yds. And most .300 blk loads out of 8" barrels would never hit 2200fps at all. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:26:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More pics and info here. https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tVXIsp4mW/?igshid=9e7z2reea22c https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tVR9np4yu/?igshid=1n9zc2tnogs60  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:31:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Another case of how a metal magazine allows for a thinner grip.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:32:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dr. Roberts (the guy you quoted on Pistol Forum) has stated that he observed M43 wounds consistent with those produced by .38 spl RNL, so that might not be too far off base. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1700fps is the original number, and one I use. .30 Carbine produces rifle like effects using JSP's at 1850fps: "With expanding projectiles, the .30 caliber M1 Carbine creates a temporary cavity stretch that is slightly larger than that produced by heavy expanding .357 Magnum hunting loads and may be able to produce permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture injuries in tissues susceptible to stretch insults, such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder. The best ammunition choices for the M1 Carbine are the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR), Hornady 110 gr FTX, and loads using all copper Barnes X bullet 110 gr JHP (like the old Corbon DPX), and the outstanding Speer 110 gr Gold Dot (which sadly is no longer being made). The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor." https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-4339.html 2200fps is far too high; by that standard 7.62x39 is only a 'rifle' for like 50-60yds. And most .300 blk loads out of 8" barrels would never hit 2200fps at all. 
To have 'rifle like' wounding, the bullet need to rapidly transfer its energy to induce the rapidly expanding temporary stretch cavity that induces tearing. You can see the difference between the M43 and the x39 JSP. Likewise, a .357 Magnum 125gr JHP @ 1700fps is absolutely devastating, while a .357 magnum 125gr FMJ is likely to produce a hole no bigger then 9x19 fmj. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:33:27 PM EDT
[#46]
There were reasons we dropped the .30 Carbine in favor of 5.56x45mm & the Soviets dropped the 7.62x39mm for 5.45x39mm.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:33:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fackler proposed a threshold of about 2,000 fps but I have never heard any credible expert suggest that it is some sort of "barrier". At low speeds, say 700 fps, the temporary stretch cavity is well below the elastic limit of human tissue. If the projectile stays the same, the TSC gets larger as velocity increases. At some point around 2,000 fps or so, the TSC is large enough that it exceeds the elastic limit of tissue and produces pronounced tearing. But the degree of tearing observed will depend on a variety of factors besides just velocity. Projectile size, shape, and construction will all play a role. I believe that tearing exists below 2,000 fps. And if you look at the actual size of TSC on high speed, you'll see that a .357 mag at about 1,700 fps can produce a larger TSC than .300 AAC at 2,000 fps. But if you're expecting to see rifle like wounds from a 45 grain bullet at 1,700 fps, that may be asking too much. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I came here to post this vid. watch it again. Pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles, 2200 FPS is the barrier does 5.7 truly five rifle performance in a pistol platform? And Ruger makes one for $500? That could change the game There are people shot with .22 Short pocket pistol who stop & fall down screaming “i’m shot!!!” and people shot over 10 times who go on to be awarded the Medal of Honor. Some folks get hit with a TSC will fall down & go boom; others will need their CNS trashed for the same effect. That’s why the permanent tissue destruction is what people look at via gel—and THAT is as reliable as the TSC..... It’s a less than perfect world, is all I come up with in these cases.... |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:34:40 PM EDT
[#48]
If a reputable company makes a 5.7 that uses the 20rd mags from FN, that’s the one I’ll be buying. In actual handgun format, not cmmg banshee
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:35:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another case of how a metal magazine allows for a thinner grip. Would FN sell mags to Ruger to use in a competing gun? Pro Mags might have been an option but Pro Mag... |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:41:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Excel Accelerator, available chambered for 5.7 X 28. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/348/427_DSC_0016-1214325.jpg http://www.excelarms.com/handguns/acceleratorpistol.html My .22 Magnum cost me just over $400 including transfer. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/837796026 Kentucky Gun Company had the best price when I was looking earlier this year. 
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